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Clob
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11-06-2006, 10:12 AM

Positive / Negative training / Ecollars

Firstly Stewart, as an emergency measure you need to either keep them on a lead and out of reach of people when you're walking. Secondly if you feel (unwisely) that you must let them offlead then at least muzzle them.

Secondly the behaviour for those two dogs is perfectly normal 'for those two dogs' 'as they are now' 'at that age'. You need formal obedience training and I suggest you stay a million miles away from anyone calling themsleves 'a behiourist'.

The problems you describe are always dealt with the 'Leave' command which is the foundation of all good formal obedience training and integrated into an obedience training programm, not that all dogs need a formal obedience training programm.

You may hear suggestions about something called 'positive training' - thats not a method of training it is a commercial product - it has no meaning at all in terms of training and most don't understand that it's just a commercial term,e.g. 'Slimline' Coke' - 'Soft' Whites' - 'De-Lux' Taxies' - 'Positive' Training'.

I think you missed some of the basics,firstly your app area apart from near the sea, then your best bet, with two dogs like that, is a one to one independent trainer but if you cant afford that then your choice is limited, but, many of the good independant trainers charge on results - no results - no fee except travell exes if they travell. If you cant one who does that then get one who charges maybe half the total fee at the beggining of a 6 lesson course and the rest on completion if they get the results.

I will add, pet dog owners who know little of dog training are being scammed like Lemmings jumping off a cliff these days, its a quagmire of rip offs out there, so be carefull, VERY.

Eight months is a good age to start formal obedience, by 10 months, with a good independant trainer you should know all you will ever need to know and with 2 fee, under control dogs, but, this age is a critical period and it needs to be dealt with ASP.
Shadowboxer
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11-06-2006, 10:50 AM
Originally Posted by Clob
Firstly Stewart, as an emergency measure you need to either keep them on a lead and out of reach of people when you're walking. Secondly if you feel (unwisely) that you must let them offlead then at least muzzle them.

Secondly the behaviour for those two dogs is perfectly normal 'for those two dogs' 'as they are now' 'at that age'. You need formal obedience training and I suggest you stay a million miles away from anyone calling themsleves 'a behiourist'.

The problems you describe are always dealt with the 'Leave' command which is the foundation of all good formal obedience training and integrated into an obedience training programm, not that all dogs need a formal obedience training programm.

You may hear suggestions about something called 'positive training' - thats not a method of training it is a commercial product - it has no meaning at all in terms of training and most don't understand that it's just a commercial term,e.g. 'Slimline' Coke' - 'Soft' Whites' - 'De-Lux' Taxies' - 'Positive' Training'.

I think you missed some of the basics,firstly your app area apart from near the sea, then your best bet, with two dogs like that, is a one to one independent trainer but if you cant afford that then your choice is limited, but, many of the good independant trainers charge on results - no results - no fee except travell exes if they travell. If you cant one who does that then get one who charges maybe half the total fee at the beggining of a 6 lesson course and the rest on completion if they get the results.

I will add, pet dog owners who know little of dog training are being scammed like Lemmings jumping off a cliff these days, its a quagmire of rip offs out there, so be carefull, VERY.

Eight months is a good age to start formal obedience, by 10 months, with a good independant trainer you should know all you will ever need to know and with 2 fee, under control dogs, but, this age is a critical period and it needs to be dealt with ASP.

Hi Clob
Would you just clarify what you mens by "positive training". I assume you are not condemning the method of positive reinforcement which rewards a dog for good efforts or a job well done with a treat, praise or a game, and likewise I assume that you are not condoning negative methods which punish a dog for failure to either understand or carry out a command ... but exactly what you mean is not quite clear.

Also, while I agree that some so-called behaviourists are totally incompetent there are some very good ones out there - and a good behavior consultant can be worth his/her weight in gold when it comes to serious behavioural problems. It is less than fair to label all of them as useless and to make such a sweeping statement needs statements of empirical evidence to back up the claim.

Teaching the 'leave' is not always within the competence of the owner who does not have the advantage of experience or access to an experienced trainer. The manner in which the 'leave' is taught is crucial to its success as a command.

I would also suggest that 8 months is rather late to start formal obedience training? I start at 8 weeks.

I cannot comment on the 'no results - no fee' trainers as I have never heard of or come across a trainer who operates this way.
Clob
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11-06-2006, 11:21 AM
Shadowboxer
Would you just clarify what you mens by "positive training".

Clob
Sorry I have time only for a short quickie ( its miday here time to go out), to a couple of bits I understand..

I already did clarify– it’s a commercial product – "positive training" has nothing to with training of any kind as it does not describe anything.

The term is used in an operant theory stimulus it is an external ‘stimulus phrase’ which stimulates the listener to think its something good, it is used on the pet owner to sell the product/concept.

Shadowboxer
and likewise I assume that you are not condoning negative methods which punish a dog for failure to either understand or carry out a command ... but exactly what you mean is not quite clear.

Clob
Sorry, I don't know what you mean by the term 'negative methods'. Here the people who use the terms "Positive" & "Negative" claim they useing them in the operant theory sense.

- I assume you are using the term in the operant sense but I have never heard of 'negative methods' in operant, sorry can you point to something in operant theory which states or defines 'Positive or Negative 'method'.

Taking into account I think that you are using operant terms/words you clearly don’t know what "positive training"means in practice, here in UK, those who claim they use it in fact use negative punishment based training.

For those who might not know these terms below is the FULL meanings of them:
|
Positive means something is added ( anything is added )
Negative means something is removed (anything is removed)

Extinction means no positive or negative stimuli are present.
|
So, if you hear all this ‘positive’ & ‘negative’ stuff above is the total meaning of it.

ShadowBoxer
It is less than fair to label all of them as useless and to make such a sweeping statement needs statements of empirical evidence to back up the claim.

Clob
Sure.
stewart.clan
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11-06-2006, 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by Dee1974
Another option stewrt is some of the DVD's and videos out. Mary Ray has a great one out on clicker training. I don't know if you've used a clicker before? but they are very easy to use and dogs seem to exceed all expectations once introduced to it.

See what Amazon has to offer as often you can buy dvd's etc which have been used only a couple of times therefore are cheap to buy.

I'm sure your collies will be fine they are just in that awful teenage phase my daughter is going through it at the moment too I wish I could clicker train her

We had a look on Amazon last night for the recommended readings and we'll have a look later for the DVDs and videos.

We have used a clicker in the past. Wouldn't it be great to clicker train certain individuals
Ramble
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11-06-2006, 07:41 PM
Hi!
Poor you!
sounds like you've got a couple of teenagers form a not very good breeder.
All I can suggest is getting them sooooo interested in you and a game when you're out they won't look at other people let alone bite and chase them. Border collies lurve playing with toys, especially chase games, so all I can suggest is to try getting them focused on that at home and then develop it when you're out.
They also need to be occupied so much it's unbelievable, BC's will keep on going and need mental stimulation almost constantly when they're young as you already know...as well as a phenomenal amount of exercise. I would say , yes, you need to watch their bopne development, but you can have them out a lot...you don't have to be actually moving all the time and with a breed like BC's sometimes they just need to run off energy...
Sorry I can't be much help, hope you get it sorted, BC's are totally fantastic.
eRaze
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12-06-2006, 01:46 AM
Originally Posted by Clob
Taking into account I think that you are using operant terms/words you clearly don’t know what "positive training"means in practice, here in UK, those who claim they use it in fact use negative punishment based training.
I havent read the whole discussion, but would you mind eloborating what you mean Clob?

I think many people know what postive training means, in a nutshell:

Positive = positive, reward, praise. Ie reinforcement with positive feedback/reward when the dog carries out the desired action (over the unwanted one in some circumstances).

Negative = punishment, reprimand. A dog is punished for doing something undesired (a reward witheld can also been seen as negative, however that in itself reinforces positive methods)

Many highly acclaimed and professional trainers use positive reinforcement as the basis of their training. If you need to look at examples, just look at SB and her dogs
willowish
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12-06-2006, 01:49 PM
Clob is talking about Operant conditioning postive and negative are not the full terms used.
They are
1. Positive Reinforcement: Your dog does something you like, you give your dog something he likes.

2. Negative Reinforcement: Involves the removal of a bad consequence when the response is performed.For instance, you say "sit" and apply upward pressure on the leash which tightens the choke chain around your dog's neck, your dog sits, and you stop choking him with a choke chain. The release of the choke chain reinforces the "sit." This also serves to increase the likelihood of the behavior in the future.

3. Positive Punishment: Involves the presentation (adding) of a bad consequence when the response is performed. For instance, you say "sit", your dog lies down, and you jerk him onto his feet with the leash. This serves to decrease the likelihood of the response in the future.

4. Negative Punishment: Involves the removal of a good consequence when the response is performed. For example You begin to pet your dog and he begins to paw and mouth you, you STOP petting and ignore him. This also serves to decrease the likelihood of the response in the future.

Most people who arent into the full theories tend to refer to only positive and negative where as its mainly Positive reinforcement and Negative punishment as explained above that is most often meant as being acceptable methods.
I dont know how this debate in this thread is going to help the original poster though.

Ramble
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12-06-2006, 01:56 PM
willowish, very well put indeed!!!!
Totally agree that it isn't going to help the discussion having a debate about terminology.
Clob
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12-06-2006, 04:18 PM
ERaz
Many highly acclaimed and professional trainers use positive reinforcement as the basis of their training. If you need to look at examples, just look at SB and her dogs

Clob
I don’t know what you mean by highly acclaimed, acclaimed by who and for what? I have no idea who SB is.

ERaZ Quoted me,
Clob
Taking into account I think that you are using operant terms/words you clearly don’t know what "positive training"means in practice, here in UK, those who claim they use it in fact use negative punishment based training.

eRaZ
I haven’t read the whole discussion, but would you mind elaborating what you mean Clob?

Clob
Sure but a couple of points.

[a]
This might well start getting drawn out, if it does its worth opening it as a separate topic.

[b]
As always the word ‘training’ is used by us all far to generally. What I mean, unless otherwise stated, is environmental safety and legal requirement obedience training.

eRaZ
I think many people know what positive training means, in a nutshell:
and then said:

1.
Positive = positive, reward, praise.

2
Ie reinforcement with positive feedback/reward when the dog carries out the desired action (over the unwanted one in some circumstances).

3.
Negative = punishment, reprimand. A dog is punished for doing something undesired.

Clob,

No eRaz, someone has told you wrong, completely wrong – in dog training they are the most misused words any language has to offer and usually they are deliberately misused to stimulate emotions in susceptible individuals.

So start again, below are the TOTAL meanings of the operant theory.

1.

Negative means ‘something/anything’ is removed/withheld.

Positive means ‘something/anything’ is added.

Extinction is said to occur when no negative or positive stimuli are present.

2.
The above definitions (Skinner 1931) give 4 parts of operant theory learning, the 4 parts are:

Positive Punishment = something/anything added = decreases behaviour

Negative Punishment = something/anything is removed/witheld = decreases behavior

Positive Reinforcement: = something/anything added = increases behavior

Negative Reinforcement = a non appetitive stimulus is removed = increases behaviour

Practical examples:

3. A.
Reward means:

‘any appetitive/favourable/nice (to that individual animal) consequence any animal perceives is the consequence of a behaviour’.

E.G’s.
Reward or Positive Reinforcements.

Human:
A murderer knifes someone to death – he does not get caught, he is rewarded by the consequence of the act of murder, it might increase the behaviour.

Dog,
Two fighting dogs are fighting to the death, one dog kills the other, the behaviour of the winning dog is ‘reward behaviour’ (they like fighting to the death, they will not run away).

Both examples above show behaviours which are positively reinforced by their consequence to each individual of each species, the animals experience a positive consequence of the behaviours above.
|
3. B.
Punishment means:

‘any non appetitive/favourable/nice (to that individual animal) consequence any animal perceives is the consequence of a behaviour.

Punishment.

Human:
A murderer is about to knife someone to death – he sees a policeman just as he is about to stab someone, he is punished by being unable to carry out the act because he fears he will get caught.

= Negative punishment – the reward of the act of murder is withheld via fear of capture.

Dog.
Two fighting dogs are fighting to the death, both dogs are separated by their owners, they still try to carry on fighting, they are punished because the owners have removed the ability to fight by holding them apart when they ‘want’ to fight to the death.

= Negative punishment – the reward of the act of killing or being killed is physicaly withheld.

Do you understand the above?
stewart.clan
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12-06-2006, 06:22 PM
Please ... if you would like to have a debate about terminology, could you take it to another thread. This is not helping with the initial query. Thanks.
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