|
Location: Pittsville, USA
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 257
|
|
Originally Posted by
Gnasher
It's just me ... the bee in my bonnet. The person I have in mind to purchase my next dog from is 100 trustworthy and any dog I buy from them I will have his ancestry going back.
So you will be provided a pedigree or already know the pedigree?
Can't imagine being anti pedigree then.
If one breeds without knowing or looking at pedigree of prospective parents they could be unknowingly inbreeding or breeding parents together that have a chance of carrying the same disease.
Nothing anyone can say will turn me on this one - I don't WANT to know what my dog will look like - how boring is that? Like buying a pair of shoes to match your handbag!!
I'm not trying to change your mind, that's personal preference. You've every right to decide.
However boring it might be though, some people are concerned as certain parts of structure can be detrimental to health, be more likely to cause injury and other phenotype traits might also lend to health problems. The average pet owner probably doesn't think about it, but some would care if they know. Some are more important if a person desires a working or sport dog, but pets can still succumb to injury and having a health issue is something a pet owner would have to deal with. If you don't have or research the pedigree (some people are given it, but don't make use of the tool) you might be unaware a prospective litter grand sire was long and sway backed (which could show up in the litter leading to back problems), maybe both parents have piebald dogs in the pedigree and are likely to be carriers potentially producing white/white head deaf dogs in that breed, perhaps double joints and trick knees leading to serious injury and joint issues. Maybe it's not exciting to find out what's back there and what your pup could look like. Of course you are dealing with polygenic and recessive genes, so there can still be variance even it doesn't tell you exactly what your dog will look like, at least often times depending on breed (or cross made) you get different looks in the litter even if you have a general idea of looks.
Temperament-wise - aside from health issues - but pure temperament, again I do not believe there are any nasty dogs, only nasty owners who do not know how to treat their chosen breed by catering to the needs for which it was bred. My Ben is a perfect example - nasty, vicious git, unpredictable, spoiled, abused and had learned to get his own way with violence. He did not know that we had learned our trade at the hands of the Master - his father Hal - who I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever could have been a nasty git had he been allowed to be.
Yes there are owners like that unfortunately. I don't believe you're considering the full picture though, as it's simply more to it than nasty owner = nasty dogs. There is also the genetic role and hereditary temperament is much more than nasty vs kind too. Dogs are selectively bred for specific behavior traits and drives, of course some are bred at random and don't meet the typical breed traits or might have problem traits due to careless breeding. This doesnt mean that owner and environment don't play a role. Nature and nuture work together, you can train for or against something, you can encourage natural behavior or discourage it, condition a dog to a certain behavior whether intentional by training or if lan owner/environment unintentially conditions a dog to exhibit a behavior, all of which dogs also genetically have the capacity to learn. As well we see that dogs when one observes parents, grand parents ect (some cases has still shown doing a cross breeding), you see behaviors which are famalial, you see certain good things or bad things that run in lines, regardless of how the dogs are being raised different by numerous different owners and environments. Some times it's a bad thing like a dangerous, unstable temperament you can put some blame to owners no doubt but when a specific dogs progeny has killed a couple people and mauled others that says there is a genetic component. Over a dozen different households with the dogs so different environments, some of which are experienced owners too and also own unrelated dogs to the unstable dogs, the unrelated dogs have fine temperament, it isn't only the owner. In other cases it is nothing so severe, it could be certain type of fear or seperation anxiety or prey drive, it is totally up to the owner to be responsible in socializing, training and managing their dogs temperament, but fact is the dog has the traits to start. I do understand where you're coming from because so many don't understand how you even train basic obedience or even socialize, leads to numerous problems developing. Then again their are untrained, unsocialized even abused and neglected dogs with not a bit of nastiness in their temperament and love anyone they meet and show no anxiety/fear because that's not in their genetic make up. The less issues a dog is genetically predisposed to have or have not been epigentically turned on the easier they will be for a less experienced owner to train and manage.
Geneticist have made head way in some of this, identifying genes related to certain types of aggression dependent on cause, anxiety, fear shy/ timid behavior, prey drive / chase response, OCD. It is actually a good thing for future of dogs in both hopefully having test available and developing treatment. My dogs are participating in a current clinical research study for behavioral genetics. Previous studies already identified genes, they are further expanding.
And we do know breeds exist due to selectively breeding largely originally for genetic behavioral traits related to working rather than physical type as many modern show dogs temperaments and looks have been changed from the originals. Also hence why Border Collies wouldn't excel as fighting dogs, Caucasian Ovcharkas wouldn't be very productive hunting dog and Pit Bulls/ average terrier wouldn't be make a good livestock guardian.
Ben learned pretty quickly that 1. we we not afraid of him and 2. we understood him, and knew what to ignore, what to praise and what to condemn. This is how a nasty dog is made into a good dog - nothing or very little to do with the lines IMO.
What are his lines like? It sounds like he learned from conditioning / training. Your talking merely about one aspect of a dog. If a dog is also exhibiting an undesirable learned behavior it is much more easy to eradicate than a genetic issue that is causing behaviors, also would rather not have to work against an issue in the first place. Problem solving skills, biddability and different types of intelligence are also innate to a dog and differing levels / types in different breeds and yes between lines. I had a line of dogs and crosses there of which took more repetitions to learn the desired behavior this was not a lack of biddability or disobedience, rather it takes longer for them to figure out what to do and take this to memory, they also have a lower level of problem solving skills to figure things out on their own.
A lot of people don't understand the genetics involved because they don't see the big picture, just one dimension.
Sorry, I have taken the thread off track but it is a subject I believe so passionately about
No apology needed
I never inteded thr thread to be about one thing.