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Location: lancs uk
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 50
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If anything they do have their place in the Gun Dog world even though other methods even in that environment are used. Will it work err yes in skilled hands. Trouble is you need training in the use of something like that and this is why I support a ban on all shock collars to the public. If you read up on Gun Dog training the basic premis is not to use the collar to shock but to use it to teach the dog that when the owner calls the dog feels best when its at its owners feet, the way to look at this is this hide from your dog to make him feel lost and watch his behaviour he'll go into a bit of an alert and slight panic and look for you - that and only that is the level of discomfort that should be given! The collar is by no means should create a shock of more discomfort than a firm NO - clearly this can be argued against but I believe like all tools a master could show how this would be more effective and more humane than a load of screaming, treating up, pissed off human, or a lost tracking dog and so on.
Are you a gun dog master that has years of experience, if like me the answer is no then that should also be the answer to your request to buy one
This is what will happen if you do, you run the risk of; Setting it too high for your dog. You give a recall and shock when they dont return dog will learn your voice means pain. Your dog may be with others and see a dog it doesnt like for no reason zap shock now it wants to kill all dogs, you may shock him near kids, now wants to kill all kids. Shocking itself may make the dog develop mental problems. BUT the biggest by far with all shock collars is the dog can and if used long enough DIE! Nope they dont tell you that. But in psychology we like to shock a few animals in order to create stress and find out how it effects living things after all the WHO state stress is the no1 killer in world.
So we electrocuted a load of monkeys, not with high volts but enough to cause major discomfort and up as high as a cry (think dog yelp) their hormones raced after prolonged shocks they would wear out their neurotransmitters for stress related hormones and die or suffer mental problems. Then we shocked them on commands to let them know it was coming, they died and developed mental problems quicker. Then we trained monkeys to shock other monkeys on the hour. The monkeys getting the shock suffered as in the first two but also the monkeys doing the shocking who never recieved any shock died very quick from tumours in their gut developed from being stressed out. Then we trained the monky to shock himself and these ones died and developed mental problems very fast indeed! (these experiements are now thankfully banned and we is not I but we in the field of psychology)
Therefore anyone fancy shocking their pet? It could kill them and you. Dont get me wrong pain is a fantastic learning tool for a dog its god damn bloody brilliant! Example I have a wood stove, it gets hot, my dog touched it with his nose once, jumped back rubbing his nose and never touched it again - very fast learning took place. As with all species learning from pain is best left to the animal ie the animal gets something wrong the body says to the brain dont ever let that happen again, the brain goes OK OK OK
Considering the speed at which pain can teach and embed a behaviour, forgetting humane reasons for a moment, it simply can not be used becasue it is too easy to embedd something that you did not wish that will have ever lasting effects. Not to mention the fact animals and humans get used to pain and fight back hence it ceases to become a learning tool.
Many of us keep terriers, their hunting skills were learnt through painful trial and error - rarely would a human understand the process and hence it should never be used as a learning tool other than a last resort by exceptional professionals where all else has failed and the animal will be PTS if the severe problem is not fixed.
Read this
http://www.clickertrainusa.com/learningtheorymain.htm it will, without having to pick up psyche books, explain pain and reward as learning outcomes. You are not wrong for thinking pain can be used to teach recall - it can. But it is a million times easier to use positive reinforcement. It is far more humane, it is far more health for the dog and for you. I beleive I can teach any dog, that does not have mental or massive social problems, recall in less than 4 weeks.
Again as far as I am concerned, controversial no its not it is science and it does have its place in the science of animal behaviour (thats real scientists not micky mouse dog behaviourists that learn no more than what is on that link) but these things need to be banned becasue of all the reasons above in both this and other peoples posts. Stick with reward based it will improve your handling skills, your bond with your dog will grow, your dog will be less stressed and more happy which will mean more health. Plus if you get it wrong you wont kill any children or other animals and you wont have to PTS your dog or worst put it to rescue so someone else can have it and maybe it will kill them.
In short, your best bet is dump it and join a dog class recommended by the rspca and read that link and look at these examples of how to train the baiscs (you can do these without a clicker too, just use the words good boy in a high voice) Good luck and let us know how you get on
http://www.clickertrainusa.com/click...ing-videos.htm
PS I hope that provided an unbiased views of negative and positive operant conditioning
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