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Lottie
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13-06-2012, 09:27 AM
Originally Posted by krlyr View Post
But Gnasher does have hindsight of the issues with Ben, as as been posted on the forum before.

If your neighbour has been your friend prior to this, were they aware of Ben's issues? I would probably be more annoyed over an incident like this if I knew that the owner of the dog knew that their dog could be aggressive with other dogs, knew that I had dogs (including entire males) and still let their dog wander around offlead on an area with shared access. My immediate neighbour has two whippets, so little dogs with delicate skin so Casper's impolite scruffing could do some serious damage (or at least traumatise the young dogs) so I am always very careful when leaving and approaching the house with Casper. Ditto in the garden, he has made no attempt to clear the 5' fencing but I am aware that he would be able and I don't know how he'd react to the dogs so he doesn't go out without supervision, if mine are playing in the garden and I need to nip to the loo then I bring them back in or get OH to go and supervise, even if next door's dogs are shut in their kennel - the neighbour has the right to have their dogs confined or loose in the garden without worrying about whether their dogs will come to any harm, like your neighbour has the right to walk down the driveway without worrying about her dogs being attacked.

When you know that your dog has issues with other dogs, you take extra care and you lapsed on this not once, but twice with the same dog. Many rescues stress the importance of 6' fencing and just because other dogs haven't attempted it, doesn't mean they can't and I would definately be putting in fencing taller than 4.5' with a DA dog. I'm putting 6' fencing up (and will still be supervising the dogs) and Casper isn't really what I'd call aggressive, but I just don't want to take the risk.
You have, in the past, refused to longline or muzzle your DA dog, in favour of using a shock collar, I can't say I'd particularly blame your neighbour for being so annoyed if she knew you had such a lax attitude towards it all.



Given what has happened because you thought x couldn't happen or neighbour should do y, do you not feel the need to exercise more caution? Personally I would be making a point of supervising them for a while just to be sure nothing can happen. Dogs can clear 6' fencing and it would be naive to assume Ben can't, considering you thought he wouldn't clear the 4'6 stuff either. And the gap along the bottom - if a broom handle can poke through, what about a paw? A nip to an errant paw may not be a big deal in the grand scheme of things can I cannot imagine it helping matters. Yes, if the dog stuck its paw into your garden then you could apportion some blame onto the owner but knowing that your dog seems to have a grudge against her dog I would be going the extra mile to prevent future incidents. What about some picket fencing 6 inches or so in from the boundary fence so that the dogs cannot reach the fence itself?



I cannot believe you are trying to put some of the blame onto the neighbour here. Well, from you, I can, but this is ridiculous. She has every right to walk across the drive as she has access, her dogs were all under control. She has no obligation to shout anything to you, and you cannot put any responsibility for your lack of control over Ben onto her!
I also agree with parts of this - my dogs go out in the garden unsupervised to a degree (I can see the garden from where I am inside and can get out there in seconds if necessary) because I've had them in it for years without them having any problems.

Despite this, I always lock the gate so nobody can attempt to open it and let them out or come in while they're in it and if I pop upstairs to the loo, they come in and wait inside because if anything happened it'd take me longer to get out.

Likewise, I agree with the idea re. the fencing - as has been said, you didn't know Ben could clear the fencing before - we had a crossbreed when I was young who could clear an eight foot high dog run from a standing start with seemingly little effort (ok, so he may have been part kangeroo!!) - not at all common, but he could do it! It wouldn't hurt to take extra precautions by doubling up the fencing as suggested
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pippam
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13-06-2012, 09:42 AM
Originally Posted by Lottie View Post
I've BEEN in this situation. My dog was put in the vets, had to be stitched back together and have a drain put in when a border collie with a resource guarding issue launched an attack on her, pinning her to the ground by her throat and refusing to let go because his owner took him for a walk with my dogs and took toys with them.

The owners were gutted, immediately offered to pay the vet bills and we remain friends to this day. I even asked if we could go walking together again, without toys, to ensure my dog had no lasting issues.

Of course, if this had happened to me I'd have been pee'd off, and I'd find it stressful living next door to a dog aggressive dog when I have dogs of my own.

However, when someone has clearly made attempts to fix the problems and is obviously apologetic then how is it right to respond in the vile and crude manner that she is?

Now, she may not purposely be slandering Gnasher's name in the village - it may simply be a case that people have asked what's wrong with the dog and she's told them but even so, the way in which she's behaving is completely unfair in my opinion - coming from someone who's dog has been hospitalised twice now to be stitched back together - neither time was the other dog injured in any way.

I'm not saying that unprovoked attacks are at all acceptable and I agree that gnasher should take responsibility - but the fact is that the responsibility has already been shouldered and there's not a lot more that can be done than what has already been done.
But this sounds like an on going problem (with the da dog I mean)

Fancey walking past a da dog thats had it in for yours more then once and see how easy you let it go. I dont think its fair for any dog or owner to live in fear of being attacked but the owners of the black lab clearly feek like that. While their behaviour is unacceptable its understandable.
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Lottie
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13-06-2012, 09:46 AM
I see what you're saying - and I don't know gnasher's background etc. (and I didn't read the whole thread either actually, which was one thing I used to tell myself off for when I used the forums before!).

However, I was thinking from the owner of the DA dog's point of view, having done as much as it seemed gnasher had done it was very unfair. (I was unaware of the refusal to muzzle the dog which I would be far less understanding of).
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labradork
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13-06-2012, 09:46 AM
Originally Posted by pippam View Post
She has every right to be upset her dog was attacked and most people are naturally unforgiving when that happens.

Even light attacks shocks people and creates an unpleasent experience so you can hardly blame her for not wanting to talk to you.

Im honestly suprised that members are so accepting of this incident.

Put yourself in their shoes you will probably find that you too would have a hard time lettings something like this go so easily.
It was hardly a brutal attack now, was it? do you really think that if a dog the size of Ben wanted to seriously hurt the dog he would have done?

Yes any attack even 'handbags at dawn' ones are quite frightening and upsetting, but you cannot tell me that the incident deserves a continued onslaught of abuse?

No sane, rational person would subject their former friends and neighbours to that verbal abuse over what was at the end of the day a relatively minor incident.

A rational person WOULD let something like this go given that the OP has made all the appropriate steps to prevent it happening again.

I would also question a £700 bill. Absolutely no way would the stitching of a small wound and a course of anti-biotics cost £700.
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Jeltz
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13-06-2012, 10:33 AM
I assume that you have now put some kind of boarding at the base of the fence to prevent "objects" being shoved through.

Given that you have taken all reasonable measures to prevent a repeat I think all you can do is live with the situation.

I know how spiteful some people can get and given the situation I fully see how its been sparked off and that she will continue to feel great animosity towards you, justified or not.

I would be tempted to write a conciliatory letter saying:-
  • You with to apologise once more for the incident which you have taken full responsibility for both financially and morally and you appreciate how frightening and upsetting it must have been.
  • You have made sure that he can not escape the garden again.
  • You ensure that he is on lead whenever it is possible that he may come into contact with the lab.
  • Tell her that you understand that she has called you a F###ing C### to (use names) and you would like that to stop as you find that deeply offensive and you know that some of those people she has said it to find such language gratuitous and offensive also.
  • Given that you have taken the incident very seriously and taken step to ensure it can never be repeated you would wish that, as neighbours, you could at least be civil even if you don't have any social interaction.

If that's falls on deaf ears then she wants to stay upset and angry and it also puts you on the moral high ground so if she says anything to people you can say that you've done everything to stop it happening again and even offered the olive branch.

For future reference, the problem with neighbour disputes when selling can be minimised if you take a Mea Culpa approach. I.e. tell viewers that you have a problem with next door and that its all your fault so when you go the problem goes too. Lay it on thick that the dog got loose, injured her dog, you paid everything but the dog is "her baby" so she's never really forgiven you etc etc. whether you truly believe it or not it is the best way to tackle it if the dispute is still running when you want to sell.
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Gnasher
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13-06-2012, 11:27 AM
Originally Posted by pippam View Post
She has every right to be upset her dog was attacked and most people are naturally unforgiving when that happens.

Even light attacks shocks people and creates an unpleasent experience so you can hardly blame her for not wanting to talk to you.

Im honestly suprised that members are so accepting of this incident.

Put yourself in their shoes you will probably find that you too would have a hard time lettings something like this go so easily.
I wouldn't - simply because it HAS to happened to me, several times, and I have NEVER behaved in such a despicable fashion! Of course they are going to be upset, I understand that, I am totally accepting of everything She said to me (apart from the c u next tuesday) but really they should have calmed down by now.

We live next door to a gorgeous entire male GSD, whom I adore as I do my own dogs, but every time we walk out of our back gate and down the steps into the field he goes absolutely ballistic barking and snarling at us. So what? He is a german shepherd, and he is doing what german shepherds do best - defend their pack and their property. I do not have a problem at all with the fact that he barks very aggressively at us and everyone else who dares to walk past his gate, but loads of people moan and groan about it, including Her Next Door. This same GSD near on scalped Hal a few years ago, and then in a separate attack had him pinned down by the throat so Hal bit through his foot. Two very nasty injuries, far far more serious than the injury to the lab, but we have remained on the very best of terms with the GSD owners, accepting that these things happen with dogs of the same sex sometimes. Most unfortunate when it happens, but happen it sometimes does and there is no point getting your knickers in a twist about it.

I am sure you would NOT behave in the way you think is justified Pippam, you sound far too reasonable a person! But thanx anyway for the other angle because it helps to get all view points so I can try to understand what I consider to be an extraordinary attitude towards people with whom you have spent so many happy hours.
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Gnasher
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13-06-2012, 11:32 AM
Originally Posted by Jeltz View Post
I assume that you have now put some kind of boarding at the base of the fence to prevent "objects" being shoved through.

Given that you have taken all reasonable measures to prevent a repeat I think all you can do is live with the situation.

I know how spiteful some people can get and given the situation I fully see how its been sparked off and that she will continue to feel great animosity towards you, justified or not.

I would be tempted to write a conciliatory letter saying:-
  • You with to apologise once more for the incident which you have taken full responsibility for both financially and morally and you appreciate how frightening and upsetting it must have been.
  • You have made sure that he can not escape the garden again.
  • You ensure that he is on lead whenever it is possible that he may come into contact with the lab.
  • Tell her that you understand that she has called you a F###ing C### to (use names) and you would like that to stop as you find that deeply offensive and you know that some of those people she has said it to find such language gratuitous and offensive also.
  • Given that you have taken the incident very seriously and taken step to ensure it can never be repeated you would wish that, as neighbours, you could at least be civil even if you don't have any social interaction.

If that's falls on deaf ears then she wants to stay upset and angry and it also puts you on the moral high ground so if she says anything to people you can say that you've done everything to stop it happening again and even offered the olive branch.

For future reference, the problem with neighbour disputes when selling can be minimised if you take a Mea Culpa approach. I.e. tell viewers that you have a problem with next door and that its all your fault so when you go the problem goes too. Lay it on thick that the dog got loose, injured her dog, you paid everything but the dog is "her baby" so she's never really forgiven you etc etc. whether you truly believe it or not it is the best way to tackle it if the dispute is still running when you want to sell.
I like your letter, and may well write something along those lines at christmas time, when hopefully She will have calmed down!

The gap at the bottom of the fence is so tiny, I don't think we would be able to do much with it. Best that we just block off that part of the garden, which we can easily do with some sort of barrier between the back fence and the conservatory. In addition, it is their fence, not our's, so we would have to ask permission and I don't think I need to elaborate any more on whether THAT would be met with approval!!
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Gnasher
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13-06-2012, 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by labradork View Post
It was hardly a brutal attack now, was it? do you really think that if a dog the size of Ben wanted to seriously hurt the dog he would have done?

Yes any attack even 'handbags at dawn' ones are quite frightening and upsetting, but you cannot tell me that the incident deserves a continued onslaught of abuse?

No sane, rational person would subject their former friends and neighbours to that verbal abuse over what was at the end of the day a relatively minor incident.

A rational person WOULD let something like this go given that the OP has made all the appropriate steps to prevent it happening again.

I would also question a £700 bill. Absolutely no way would the stitching of a small wound and a course of anti-biotics cost £700.
Thanx for that Labradork. No, it was not a savage attack in terms of the damage that was inflicted, however, to be fair to Her next door, there she and her hubby were, walking past our back garden with her 2 on the lead. They stop to say hello to us humans over the fence, when Ben suddenly and out of the blue leaps over the fence and down the ha-ha-type ditch thing into the field and launches himself straight onto the BL. That in anyone's book is pretty scary, even to someone who is totally doggy like myself, and they are more catty than doggy, if you get my drift. Their way to train or discipline their dogs is to hit them, so I certainly do not classify them as dog people. Thus I can totally understand that they must have been absolutely petrified when 45 kilos of Ben came thundering towards them.

that said, I agree that their reaction is TOTALLY over the top, which is why I just know that there is far more to this than meets the eye. As I have said before, we have spent so many happy and very boozy hours together at each other's houses, it may be that me or my OH said something to upset her. It could be because our 2 chase her cats out of our garden, and we don't stop them because we do not want cats in our garden due to the large amount of nesting birds we have in our wild bits, deliberately left wild to encourage wildlife. They both adore cats and it could be this that really upsets them. There is not a cat in hell's chase of either dog actually catching one of their cats, and I never let them chase her elderly cat who only has 3 good legs, but my strategy works because her cats do not come in our back garden any more.

All very sad and very upsetting, but thanx for your support mate!
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Gnasher
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13-06-2012, 11:49 AM
Originally Posted by pippam View Post
But this sounds like an on going problem (with the da dog I mean)

Fancey walking past a da dog thats had it in for yours more then once and see how easy you let it go. I dont think its fair for any dog or owner to live in fear of being attacked but the owners of the black lab clearly feek like that. While their behaviour is unacceptable its understandable.
I totally agree Pippam, we do have on-going DA issues with Ben. But you have got it totally wrong. They were walking their 2 past our garden, containing Ben and Tai. They know that ben has issues with their BL, so actually you could say it was partly their fault for walking past our garden. They don't need to, they can go both ways. However, it would be totally unreasonable of me to blame them in any way for the incident. But in addition, it is totally unreasonable of you to say that "we let Ben go!" Of course we did not let him go, our back garden has contained perfectly safely dogs much larger and more agile than Ben for the past 15 years with never an incident. And that includes Woody, Ben's half brother, who could jump a 5'6 fence from a total standstill and leap clear over the top of it without even touching it. He never made any attempt to jump out because there is a massive drop the other side which is a huge area of stinging nettles left to grow there deliberately by moi to encourage butterflies but to also discourage dogs walking past to come up to the fence - because Ben is DA and will bark like fury at them.

Yes, I agree though, their behaviour IS understandable (with the exception of the c you next tuesday and the f'ing and blinding and the pure hatred and desire to kill my dog), but would be considered unreasonable if it continues much longer. Apart from Ben's blood, what more can we do? We have spent hundreds of pounds going totally over the top by making our garden like Fort Knox. 6' gates with double bolts, the fence he jumped over heightened by at least 2 foot and wire threaded between the rails to prevent any slippage between, plus we have planted prickly climbing roses, macrocarpa AND honeysuckles all the way along the fence as an added precaution. Houdini himself could not get in or out of our garden now. We have stopped walking our 2 where we know they walk, we now have to drive out in the car twice a day to exercise our 2 with the added cost of petrol. We don't even tether them now on the front drive whilst we are fiddling with the cars just in case they want to walk across with or without their dogs. I just don't know how we could have been more apologetic, more reasonable, and more responsible and concerned.

Incidentally, out of interest, our insurance company have written to them twice asking them for the ORIGINAL vet bills, not the copies that they supplied to us, and they haven't heard a dickie bird. Very strange.
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Gnasher
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13-06-2012, 12:04 PM
Originally Posted by krlyr View Post
But Gnasher does have hindsight of the issues with Ben, as as been posted on the forum before.

If your neighbour has been your friend prior to this, were they aware of Ben's issues? I would probably be more annoyed over an incident like this if I knew that the owner of the dog knew that their dog could be aggressive with other dogs, knew that I had dogs (including entire males) and still let their dog wander around offlead on an area with shared access. My immediate neighbour has two whippets, so little dogs with delicate skin so Casper's impolite scruffing could do some serious damage (or at least traumatise the young dogs) so I am always very careful when leaving and approaching the house with Casper. Ditto in the garden, he has made no attempt to clear the 5' fencing but I am aware that he would be able and I don't know how he'd react to the dogs so he doesn't go out without supervision, if mine are playing in the garden and I need to nip to the loo then I bring them back in or get OH to go and supervise, even if next door's dogs are shut in their kennel - the neighbour has the right to have their dogs confined or loose in the garden without worrying about whether their dogs will come to any harm, like your neighbour has the right to walk down the driveway without worrying about her dogs being attacked.

When you know that your dog has issues with other dogs, you take extra care and you lapsed on this not once, but twice with the same dog. Many rescues stress the importance of 6' fencing and just because other dogs haven't attempted it, doesn't mean they can't and I would definately be putting in fencing taller than 4.5' with a DA dog. I'm putting 6' fencing up (and will still be supervising the dogs) and Casper isn't really what I'd call aggressive, but I just don't want to take the risk.
You have, in the past, refused to longline or muzzle your DA dog, in favour of using a shock collar, I can't say I'd particularly blame your neighbour for being so annoyed if she knew you had such a lax attitude towards it all.



Given what has happened because you thought x couldn't happen or neighbour should do y, do you not feel the need to exercise more caution? Personally I would be making a point of supervising them for a while just to be sure nothing can happen. Dogs can clear 6' fencing and it would be naive to assume Ben can't, considering you thought he wouldn't clear the 4'6 stuff either. And the gap along the bottom - if a broom handle can poke through, what about a paw? A nip to an errant paw may not be a big deal in the grand scheme of things can I cannot imagine it helping matters. Yes, if the dog stuck its paw into your garden then you could apportion some blame onto the owner but knowing that your dog seems to have a grudge against her dog I would be going the extra mile to prevent future incidents. What about some picket fencing 6 inches or so in from the boundary fence so that the dogs cannot reach the fence itself?



I cannot believe you are trying to put some of the blame onto the neighbour here. Well, from you, I can, but this is ridiculous. She has every right to walk across the drive as she has access, her dogs were all under control. She has no obligation to shout anything to you, and you cannot put any responsibility for your lack of control over Ben onto her!

I wouldn't expect anything else from you either.

Just for the record though, our neighbours were TOTALLY aware of the issues we had and have with Ben. BECAUSE they have to cross our drive I have taken pains to explain to them that Ben came to us as rescue. For the first 3 years of his life he lived on concrete chained up with no shelter, no socialisation with other dogs, no nothing except for food and water. Then he was on a running line in someone's back garden. I explained that when we first got him he had huge issues with being groomed, and was a mass of solid matts. I explained about his disobedience, his sudden bonding with Tai to the point that he became the Defender of the Pack and we had to be very vigilant with his emerging DA, as he found his feet and his confidence. They were FULLY aware of everything about ben - so, for Her to walk across our drive, in the dusk, knowing full well that we had no idea she was there (the drive is very large indeed, sort of circular but with a long straight bit which comes off the lane), she was hidden by a large tree which grows over the entrance to the drive, was madness in itself. She couldn't be bothered to wait, so instead of calling out "Hiya, I'm bringing my two in, could you just grab Ben and Tai", she just blasts in and the result was predictive. However, all that said I STILL blame myself because as you rightly point out they are my dogs, on my drive, loose (God forbid that one should ever let one's dogs off the lead on their own property), and so therefore I was responsible for them. Actually, my 2 were perfectly well mannered. They went dashing up to the dogs and greeted them. All tails were wagging, all was fine until the black lab growled at Ben - so my dogs were not totally to blame. I don't know many male dogs who will put up with another male of equal size growling at them on their own property!

So thanks for your kind words.
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