and how do you know all these things?
just out of interest which type of wolves behaviour are you basing the observations on? Timber wolf? Gray wolf?

I think people see submission because they are looking for it
Of course in some situations it can well mean 'please dont attack me' and yes I have seen it in that situation
But I cannot see how a dog on their back still play fighting is in any way submitting

and interestingly not 10 min ago I was lying on the sofa - Mia came over and lay beside me. I petted her, then when I stopped she rolled onto her back to get more attention (It was totaly an attention seeking move) then when I started petting her again she got all silly and tried to nibble my nose

I would say in many situations it is simply a playfull puppy manover
Like any other signal a dog gives it depends on the context

Trust me, in play Mia can be upside down ankle biting ben one min - then on his back humping him the next

Definition for internet troll:
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, , or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response.

Can you point towards the place i have done so?
Prager Hans

by the method of pinning down a puppy your saying is and ive highlighted it. with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response. so when my bullmastif cross rotty used to growl and mouth in play your saying i should of followed what you say about pinning him down lmfao get out of here. the method of walking away and ignoring him and telling him with a loud ow we tought him. so were is the method of pinning a puppy down constructive as to the method provided by many here worked. By your out of date cruel method i truely believe you have prevoked an emotional response.

Prager Hans

OK,...now you got me. I give up
If you really want to know, then please read what I have already written here.
Now I am going to go hike with my dogs and then I am going to have a beer: !!!
Pager Hans

Hmm, I disagree... Konrad Most, Koehler, the Monks, Woodhouse, CM, etc promoted punishment. It took a while for positive methods for the general public to appear, and then to be accepted. You can go back to cavemen, Romans, sporting dogs in the 1700s etc if you want Yes not everyone has done this, but generally in dog training, with some exceptions, this is what has been used (see Burch and Bailey, How Dogs Learn).

By that I mean an emphasis on punishment.

I didn't think you'd agree, but there we go

Wys
x

What rot!!

Never mind, Wys - I am following your posts with interest and learning from them.
If someone uses the AP trick of only answering an isolated point because he or she can`t answer the rest, remember that the rest of us are reading and nodding.

I agree.

It never ceases to amaze me, that some people still live in a world of domination fearing the canine race will if not "forced to submit" to us the human race, they will rise up and dominate us...

Some of the stuff we are reading hers would be funny if it was not so sad

In that case, you already know that most canids live in family groups, with the breeding pair as seniors and youngsters hanging around til they mature and go off to develop their own group/s. They will help out with a younger litter born to their parents if there is one, and help bring down large prey if there is any to be had.

They co-operate, there is no domination, and aggression isn't needed to maintain coherence of the group.

There is no 'Alpha' - just Mum and Dad, and the family.