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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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01-08-2011, 12:39 PM
Originally Posted by BangKaew View Post
Cesar is not there to train, only to rehabilitate dogs like abandoned fighting pitbulls and ex scrap metal guard dogs who otherwise would have absolutely no future. You can not blame him for agreeing to attempt to help rehabilitate a dog when asked. You can not blame him for agreeing to do a tv show. If you want to blame someone, blame the people who ask him for help. He was a highly specialized dog rehabilitation expert for red zone dogs, maybe 0.1% of dogs, who was asked to go mainstream. He produces excellent results with very shy dogs also.
Its all training no matter what words you use
and although he always makes it sound different he is not the only person who deals with 'red zone' dogs and not only is his method not the only way to do it science and experience have shown that his method when it works works for different reasons than he thinks they do - and when they fail it makes the dog far more aggressive

Originally Posted by BangKaew View Post
I use examples to back my opinion. You have not given any examples of dogs correcting one another with out either blocking, growling or biting. I see packs of dogs every day. Packs that usually have no human supervision.
But we are not dogs
we do not have the same body laungage that dogs have
we do not see, hear or smell like dogs

But if you want examples
watch dogs more closely then
more often than not a look, a freeze, ears moving back, tail changing position, fur changing position is enough of a warning to another dog to make them change their minds about what they were doing

all way before any vocalisations are needed

I have never seen CM move his ears to indicate he isnt happy with what the other dog is doing


also his methods are based on flawed research
dogs/wolves do not line up in perfect order to walk nicely - so why does he insist in dogs having to walk behind? (and why dont guide dogs try and take over the world - they lead?)
The alpha dosent have to lead with a paw of steel - they are alpha not because of energy but because they are the parents of the other wolves
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Mahooli
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01-08-2011, 01:28 PM
Originally Posted by BangKaew View Post
I use examples to back my opinion. You have not given any examples of dogs correcting one another with out either blocking, growling or biting. I see packs of dogs every day. Packs that usually have no human supervision.
I suggest you look up the research that is based on domestic feral dog packs. As for seeing a pack everyday I live with one and I don't see any of this behaviour, I get the occasional ding dongs when one of the girls is coming in but by far the most common 'behaviour' is body language not out and out aggression.
Becky
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Chris
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01-08-2011, 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by BangKaew View Post
I quite agree, but what if you do not have mutual respect? What if the dog trusts you and you can pull his tail all day. He loves you but does not fully respect you. If he sees a dog that he wants to attack and he does not fully respect you, he is not going to listen. I am talking off the leash of course. Cesar has complete respect from his own pack of 40 pitbulls and rotts and they love him because they are in a balanced pack where there is no fighting or bullying because he will not allow it. Admittedly his method is not the only way, but he gets respect right away which is what his clients, who are often afraid of their own dogs, want.
If you do not have mutual respect you train the dog. However, you do not need to use force to train. You cannot 'force' respect, you earn it.

How do you know that Caesers dogs are happy being in a pack of 40. How do you know that some of these dogs aren't 'shut down' (ie learned helplessness). How do you know that if he were to let one of his dogs off lead with dogs they do not know around that they wouldn't attack and not listen to him in that circumstance.

I long since stopped believing all I see on TV - in fact, most of it is so far fetched that I don't know if I ever did
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Wysiwyg
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01-08-2011, 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by Mahooli View Post
Sadly you have Cesar's Blinkers, you will try, no matter what evidence is presented to you, to justify what he does to dogs. If you think CM does what a dog does then you don't know dogs very well.
Becky
I have to agree. I don't think it's worth bothering much to discuss this, because sometimes people are very blinkered and just see and hear what CM does/says and to them, that's that - even though they are armchair trainers and behaviourists at the end of the day

Wys
x
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Wysiwyg
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01-08-2011, 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by BangKaew View Post
Cesar is not there to train, only to rehabilitate dogs like abandoned fighting pitbulls and ex scrap metal guard dogs who otherwise would have absolutely no future. You can not blame him for agreeing to attempt to help rehabilitate a dog when asked. You can not blame him for agreeing to do a tv show. If you want to blame someone, blame the people who ask him for help. He was a highly specialized dog rehabilitation expert for red zone dogs, maybe 0.1% of dogs, who was asked to go mainstream. He produces excellent results with very shy dogs also.
No BangKaew, unfortunately you are wrong on so many things it'shard to know where to start ...

Your best post has been about the Jindo, because it showed an inkling of understanding

But your other posts are really only full of CMs words, regurgitated by yourself ...

Wys
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smokeybear
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02-08-2011, 05:42 AM
I do not post much on threads like this as to me it is pointless as there is too much polarisation for it to be worthwhile.

A bit like pro and anti hunting threads et al.

However I would just like to offer the following thoughts:

1 Is the reason that Cesars dogs "appear" to get on so well the fact that they go out on forced "marine" runs for a couple of hours each day? You get the same effect with street dogs here in the UK; the dogs cling like glue to owners, never on a lead but they are always on the move.

2 Everyone attracts groupies whether it is CM, ID, VS, JD, JF, etc etc

Nothing wrong in having people you admire and look up to as long as a) this is not mindless slavish devotion to the detriment of dogs b) you accept that ALL individuals (yes even me) are not always right about everything.

I read one of CMs books overnight at a friends, I cannot remember which one, but THAT one was ok, it was a very good book for novice dog owners.

I have read the others (one of my friends is a CM fanatic) and most of them appear to be more about how marvellous he is and a lot of name dropping rather than focusing on the dogs themselves.

I have seen some programmes and again some have been mixed with some good points but many where I have been aghast at the treatment.

But hey ho, this is the nature of today's society, we deify certain individuals and treat them like they have just discovered radium........... until we have had enough of them and our attention is drawn to someone else.

CM reflects his environment; nuff said!

Nobody is perfect, but some are less flawed than others.........
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WhichPets
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02-08-2011, 07:03 AM
With regards to Cesar, it is one thing him doing it, but the thing that bothers me is the amount of people I see attempting to recreate the effect he appears to have. The media exposure he gets leads to people TSSSTing, poking, kicking and tugging all over the place - Cesar 'corrections'.

I will admit, that watching his programs fascinates me, I think he seems to read dogs well. Sometimes I think he has good advice, other times I dont like what he does. In the program it seems to work fast for him, but this is TV and you cannot know what really goes on, or the long term effect on the dog. The trouble is when you see people trying to copy it - you realise its cruel.

Recently I was in PAH. A man with a reactive, over excited lab cross, took the dog to somewhere highly stimulating. Then when the dog reacted he jerked around the check collar, and then did a well practise Cesar kick. He repeated this well over 5 times, with no response from the dog at all - as the man had placed the dog only 1 meter from the degu cage! I find it sad to see that people who think they are helping their dogs like this, are infact probably causing more harm than good.

When you call it a 'kick' rather than a 'correction' it sounds rather more cruel I think and shows the true nature of what goes on.
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BangKaew
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02-08-2011, 07:58 AM
CM does not string the dog up when he goes for the other dog, the dog is not reacting so CM kicks the dog in the belly and as the dog turns towards him he strings him up - AT THIS POINT the dog starts fighting
Cesar saw the dog look at the collie, the precursor to an attack, and immediately corrected with a nudge and then the dog went to bite him. This was a dog that was very dominant and thought it was the leader of everything. A dog that was a follower would not attack the pack leader for a nudge like that. Cesar was attempting to establish dominance over the dog. Do you think it would be a good idea for that Malamut to think it was the boss?

Plenty trainers rehabilitate dogs as bad or worse than the ones shown here, my dog was worse than shadow - albeit smaller - and I never had to wrestle to stop her biting me
GOOD trainers dont get into a situation where they will get bitten
That dog would have no problem if it avoided other dogs. Cesar is trying to rehabilitate the dog not avoid potential problems. Michael Vick's pitbulls are now hospice service dogs, but I bet they are not rehabilitated when it comes to other dogs. The Positive reinforcement techniques used for them is basically avoidance.


The dog is not making a choice to be 'bad' it shows a very disturbed mind for a dog to be trying to fight and the mind has to be fixed - CM's method does not address the reason for the problem or make the dog like being in the presences of the other dogs more
Of course Cesar knows the dog is not bad. As he says, the dog was looking to establish dominance over every dog it thought was in its extended territory. That is not bad and is not a case of getting it to like the other dogs more. If the dogs were free to rome then there would be no problem. Cesar is fixing the root of the problem or the mind by attempting to make the dog accept human leadership so that it will obey.

But you are right, no one else is going to be able to control that dog using dominance!

What energy is this? how is it measured?
Its actually the vibration the cells resonate at but can you measure confidence or nervous energy? A dog knows exactly how you are feeling.

each work in their own ways - but punishing when they have no understanding of what we want just isnt fair imo
I completely agree, but that is not how dogs do it. When our second dog went to bite the sofa, the elder dog chased him away. The same as the dogs did when he went for the chickens. The second dog is not dominant at all so you basically only need to shout oiy once and he will not do it again. But we are still correcting the behaviour as it occurs. The same as a mother dog would.
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BangKaew
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02-08-2011, 10:44 AM

But if you want examples
watch dogs more closely then
more often than not a look, a freeze, ears moving back, tail changing position, fur changing position is enough of a warning to another dog to make them change their minds about what they were doing
I see all that and often it is far more subtle. The elder dog can be lying on his side and just by the eyes or the energy he is projecting, the young dog knows if it is ok to come up and initiate play, or whether to give him a wide berth. What you are saying is that dogs rule by the threat of action or intimidation and that is what Cesar attempts to replicate.

and although he always makes it sound different he is not the only person who deals with 'red zone' dogs and not only is his method not the only way to do it
Can you give me a name to search youtube for even a mobile phone video of them in action?

also his methods are based on flawed research
dogs/wolves do not line up in perfect order to walk nicely - so why does he insist in dogs having to walk behind? (and why dont guide dogs try and take over the world - they lead?)
The alpha dosent have to lead with a paw of steel - they are alpha not because of energy but because they are the parents of the other wolves
I have heard him say that obviously a dog at work can be out in front. What he is doing by saying that is to help people who find it difficult to control their dogs. He is pointing out all the different ways to establish a leadership role. The dog eating after you, only getting on the sofa or bed when invited etc. You must admit that a dog pulling out in front is not under psychological control of the owner?

I drive at 10km/h with my dog and they see it as travelling that Cesar talks about. They absolutely love it and stay right next to the truck, seeing it as work. If they go to roll in something or drink stagnant water, all i need to do is call them and they come with the urgency of a dog that is needed for work. Now they can go in front if they want although they actually prefer to be at the side. However when I started doing it, I found that if I was going too slow and the elder dog was doing his own thing out in front, he would not come back when called. When I made sure to be in front, he would. If I saw him drinking from a puddle and I got out and gave him water, he again would only come back when he felt like it! He saw my kindness as weakness unfortunately. That reminded me that he is not human but a dog.

As to wolves, in the below study, they introduced a litter of 8 months cubs to an adult pair of wolves. The Alpha cub immediately became the alpha wolf of the new pack. They say alphas are born.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qEwoCu9aMc
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BangKaew
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02-08-2011, 10:50 AM
Originally Posted by Mahooli View Post
I suggest you look up the research that is based on domestic feral dog packs. As for seeing a pack everyday I live with one and I don't see any of this behaviour, I get the occasional ding dongs when one of the girls is coming in but by far the most common 'behaviour' is body language not out and out aggression.
Becky
Cesar's whole approach is body language and energy! It is only when that is not enough that he pokes them. Cesar does not need to touch his own pack, like it is in your pack, only with new dogs that have not got it yet.
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