Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
Look, I'm sorry but let's get a few things straight here
I used to use verbal "corrections" (I had very good timing)
I used to physically "correct"
I used to tell dogs off when they'd done something "wrong"
and ya know what? I have far more understanding and control now than I ever did. The same for many of the people I know.
And what are we using now?
Very few if any, ever, verbal "corrections"
Waggytails:
So you never say "Ah-Ah" or "No" to correct your dog? How do you correct them?
I said "very few, if any, ever" - it would depend on the situation. My dog is now 10, and I can't recall using anything like this for a long long long time.
So to be clear, I have said I might use it, but it would not ever be my first port of call. When it has been used, it's been more like Brierley has described - said in a sing songy voice in fact.
I think the mind set is interesting here, in fact, because you ask how do I
correct a dog? The simple answer is that I very rarely ever do!
Certainly not in a training situation - that's down to me, not the dog.
In behaviour situation - a
last resort would be use of say, spray collar.
In an emergency - if it was the best/safest/quickest course of action, but then I think emergencies are different.
Wys:No physical "corrections"
Waggytails:I think my understanding of physical correction is different to yours..Do you use any "physical" means to teach your dog? (using your hand to guide them into a position or to move them away from a situation?
Not really. I used to with my other dogs, I used "modelling" (guiding with the hand) sometimes. Nowadays I teach by Lure and Reward and Shaping - so not really any hands on the dog.
I teach dogs to enjoy being handled, separately.
Wys: Rarely telling a dog off when they've done something "wrong" (because the dogs are trained and so if you have common sense, you can pre-empt or train a Very Good Sit (as Dunbar agrees, this solves a shed load of problems).).
Waggytails: Of course things are different once a dog is "trained" but what about when you are still training or when the dog is still young and very impulse driven?
Clearly with an adolescent/youngster, this is where common sense is needed. If the dog runs off, use a long line and train for recall; if the dog jumps up, teach it not to (various methods, I use clicker); if the dog breaks Stays, teach it not to ... it's all in the training, for me.
Why do you feel it is wrong to "tell a dog off" you are responsible for his education, if you dont teach him right from wrong aren't you setting him up to fail?
No, I believe in setting dogs up for success, which is precisly why I don't "tell a dog off" as such. I never say "you bad dog" or use physical punishment means.
If a dog does something wrong, it either has no clue, or it's my fault for not watching or not instructing (such as, Sit and Wait).
If the dog breaks that, then it's my fault for not training it well enough and not proofing it etc.
Wys, If changing your technique has worked for you then thats great, but sadly its not the same for all handlers, This is what I mean by "limiting your training methods"
Well, don't forget that plenty of us owners/trainers who used to use punishment (physical/verbal) as a matter of course, have altered our methods and as I've said, have found better understanding, control, etc
So that is expansion and an open mind to new and different methods. Altering from old methods. I think that is good, if it improves welfare, understanding, effectiveness, etc.
I think a lot of owners don't give boundaries and tend to nag and aren't consistent - but this is their problem, not a method problem, as such.
Don't forget that people who have "corrected" their dogs often end up with brown nosing, too scared to dare, dogs who end up having to be told everything, because they dare not put a paw out of line. Often you see them being punished unfairly, even for training mistakes made by the owner/handler. Control, but at what cost? Hmmm!
Not saying this is true of those who use occasional "corrections" as it's not. I do recognise that some dogs are ok with being told off and occasional "corrections" but my observations/experience over time are that there is no reason to train like this, when you can train using other methods and not using "corrections" as part of the training, as such.
People should not feel bad for raising their voice
when nessecary, nethier should they feel worried about being more "hands on" with their dogs. Its all about how/when/why you are doing it.
I look outside at my neighbours, the ones I mentioned in a previous post, and they use similar methods to the ones you describe. Perhaps in kind, experienced hands, such methods are ok, but honestly I look at this confused ESS and just feel pretty sad. They use verbal corrections, constantly, little praise, and don't teach what they DO want. Talk about Mr and Mrs Inconsistent!
The above is one of many people/dog situations, and its' the reality, I feel, of teaching methods that use "correction" - because few people have the finesse to do this and actually be fair. It's a big, big bugbear of mine.
Most people, even trainers, are not very good with timing or consistency, and to train using "corrections" you have to have both. You also have to use plenty of rewards and understand about altering your "bad dog" to "clever lad" very fast as the dog's behaviour alters.
Most cannot do this - most continue to punish with their voice, even after the dog offers another bheaviour, and this is CRUCIAL to the dog understanding, but so often the dog is left floundering.
So I cannot in all conscience recommend this to my clients and I don't do it myself. Clearly this is muddled training, but I seen it all my life, and hate it.
I think this is the BIG difference between methods - clicker, lure and reward, whatever:
all concentrate on teaching what is wanted. The dog becomes confident and "gets it".
This is what I so love about modern training
I feel its important to use your voice and body when communicating with your dog. these are the two "tools" you always have to hand!... Also The dog will focus on YOU as well as on his favourite toy/food.
I probably agree with this actually,
although we might disagree on the minutiae of the meaning.
Wys
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