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Location: Wiltshire UK
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 14,404
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21-03-2011, 09:58 AM
This is precisely my point.
You have had GSD, some of us have had more than one breed and had the "extreme" end of those breeds and we understand that for those breeds which, unlike the GSD, are specifically bred NOT to be handler dependent (eg the HPRs) their outlook on life is VASTLY different to that of those that ARE handler dependent.
For example, I have two dogs, an extremely high drive GSD bred to work, so not a pet dog nor one bred for show or the obedience market etc. I also have a high drive Weimaraner, bred from generations of successful WT dogs and dogs very successful in the shooting field.
The difference between the two breeds is, if I get out of the car, one dog will be tripping me up wanting to play, the other may be 5 fields away hunting and would quite happily do this all day with absolutely no interest in my whereabouts.
That is what a Weimaraner was bred for, high degree of initiative as they have to hunt, point, flush, retrieve game.
It is the same as the advice given to puppy owners about running and hiding from their pup.
If you run away from a GSD (generally speaking) they have a nervous breakdown; an HPR will not even notice (generally speaking).
The challenges for training both are similar AND different. So for example, getting a good sendaway( I am talking 300 yards) from a GSD tends to be marginally more difficult whereas with an HPR that loves running, finding the brakes is more difficult.
Nobody is saying that playing with your dog should be "dismissed" what I am saying is that all the play in the world can be of NO consequence to SOME dogs and it behooves some trainers and owners to understand this.
This is why husky owners are advised to keep them on a lead, and hounds need careful supervision.
When you are exposed to, have owned, and trained various breeds of dogs and various "lines" of dogs, you get to appreciate that dogs don'tactually read.....................
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Location: South East UK
Joined: Mar 2005
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21-03-2011, 11:04 AM
One of my best friends has a pointer and just like you say, he's off as soon as he gets out of the car and we never see him for the entire walk, he's far too busy. I'm just glad I've got such an afinity with the breed that I love, because it would be ME having that nervous breakdown if any of my dogs behaved like that, and as you know, shepherds would never let you out of their sight, hence the reason for not wanting to risk chasing anything I suppose
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Location: UK
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 709
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21-03-2011, 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg 
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
But you can't say that of the author of this book
Why do you say that?
From what I know of him, David Ryan (if that is who you mean) has spent 26 years teaching predominantly ONE type of dog training activity, in a very limited environemnt.....with I assume, a fairly limited selection of
breeds.
In my view that is pretty limited!
I know many service instructors and in my experience, their experience, is rather limited to the specifics of what they do. So he has been out of the forces for 4 years. I therefore stand by what I said, I wonder if he has seen enough dogs ???
I hope this comes out OK, am trying the colours out in response to your reply
I guess we see things differently (and that's OK) but I would say he has a lot of experience. He's trained a variety of dogs in the police force as both handler and instructor, plus got himself the renowned (in the field) Southampton diploma and his main interest was predatory chasing. He has been helping lots of people since, with all sorts of dogs. I guess you are saying he's not had pet dog training experience for a huge number of years, but then he has had experience of training high drive dogs with chase instincts in the real world. I don't mind disagreeing though,
I find your views fascinating.
. DO you know him personally? What I was saying is, I wonder how many of the "real predators" of the dog world he enountered , the terriers and the hunting dogs etc. during his years in the police force? And of those, I wonder how many where kept in domestic environments, by pet owners. - then types of dogs and people he presumably encounters now? Do you know which breeds he trained in the police force? Where there any terriers? Lurchers? Greyhounds? BCs? Any of the hunting breeds or corsses?
Teaching Service dog handlers is VERY defferent from teaching civilian pet owners. Believe me!
Though I enjoy both. And remember also that anyone specialising in BEHAVIOUR is by definition of the timescales involved, simply unable to see that many dogs a week! In my experience of many "behaviour only" people.... they simply don't get a big variety of experience.
I have never trained with this guy so I don't have an opinion of him, but to me when I read 27 years in military or police handling, i read "very limited experience in every breed dog training". And I know and work with a lot of forces handlers and instructors personally, who would agree with me!
...
I wasn't criticising the guy, his book, or the technique, I just think that it appeared like a one size fits all. And I don't like those because they make people feel inadequate if that particular size doesnt fir their particular dog.
If he came across various situations, he'd clearly tailor his programme to the individual dog and owner, but within what he's found works. I think we'd all do that, no? In the meantime I think a book on chasing is probably the best to be found - I've not come across any other one, except the one by Clarissa von Reinhardt, recently published
DO you know him personally then? Have you seen his tailored techniques? In which case I bow down to your experience of him.
I dont need to have a resolution for Cloud by the way. My intention is to see how it pans out over her lifetime for the sake of learning. I can keep her safe, by lonbt letting her get near cars. Simple.
Yep, we had a collie in the LD chase after our car, it was like lightning and was in danger. Shot off again back to the farm over the wall
Keeping safe is best, does she do other things to keep her happy? I've seen some fab videos recently of some kind of huge ball some dogs were chasing, but with Cloud's physical problems it must be hard for her.Cloud is limited s to what she can do. She still walks 2 to 3 hours a day as she just trots along and walkign doesnt seem to hurt her too much. She also does all my clicker demos and is brilliant at that. She also did a bit of obedience cometition and did very well year and I may do a bit more this year, if she isn't too uncomfortable with the sit stays. She also swims daily in summer. And she is of course the dog that I use for most of our aggression cases as she is brilliant at it, even without the physical power she once had. Usually a look and a snap is all that is needed. This year she is playing the star roll in our upcoming film, and I think that after that she will soon retire from this work though, - when she choses, - just as she has retired from the more demanding sheep work and agility.
Dx
Hope that all makes sense?
I think so, and I shall post and see if I've got the colours right, so that my reply makes sense
Wys
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Location: Fife, UK
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,695
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21-03-2011, 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by Helena54
and in my experience, being on my 8th german shepherd, it is
or it has helped me, to say the least, it can't be dismissed! No, of course I don't have the qualifications for my gsd's like you do (never had the inclination), but I do have experience of having owned, well behaved obedient ones, who have never had the inclination to chase anything because they have me. I can't answer for rescues, because mine have been brought up and trained by me, it's totally different imo with rescues, they have never had the chance of testing my theory perhaps.
I was thinking about this today and when I was out with the dog...when I think about it I have used a mixture of ways with Loui really, 'his toy' ball and clicker and sometimes just praise, just thought I'd share really
smokeybear
Nobody is saying that playing with your dog should be "dismissed" what I am saying is that all the play in the world can be of NO consequence to SOME dogs and it behooves some trainers and owners to understand this.
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Location: South East UK
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 27,437
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21-03-2011, 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by Dobermann
I've known rescue GSD do well with a ball on a rope, just takes longer and maybe 'manage' more....but have seen them do well with that. Mind you I have seen some that are a bit overprotective/obsessive with the ball but not sure if they were rescues tbh.
I was thinking about this today and when I was out with the dog...when I think about it I have used a mixture of ways with Loui really, 'his toy' ball and clicker and sometimes just praise, just thought I'd share really
Same here, I use a mixture with Zena depending on the circumstance really
smokeybear
Likewise with food, some trainers/owners just dont understand that some dogs couldnt give a hoot if you had a roast dinner on a plate to train them....some things, ANY food just isnt going to 'cut it'
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