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SibeVibe
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25-03-2010, 01:25 PM
I met a guy this morning with a one yr old Springer. The little lad was brought to his knees last week with an electric shock collar turned up so high the dogs front legs buckled under him when the remote was hit.

The trainer assured the man that it would only take a few sessions to stop the dog chasing sheep. The training had no positive effect what so ever and the owner now feels terrible that he trusted a trainer and put his little guy through such an ordeal.

I know where I would strap the shock collar to if I met the guy giving out this type of advise to members of the public as an effective way to train their dogs.

I live with expert predators. Hardwired to hunt independantly. I hope and pray a naive sibe owner never gets in touch with this man.

Take Care.

Seoniad.
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wilbar
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25-03-2010, 01:49 PM
Those stories are so sad wysiwyg. Just goes to show the damage they can do in the right hands, let alone when used by unsuspecting members of the public who don't know what they're doing.

Unfortunately the manufacturers & advertising blurp say that the collars don't hurt & on a low level perhaps the physical pain is not very bad ~ but it doesn't allow for the startle factor, or take into account the dog's mental & emotional state at the time of the shock. Just someone coming up behind me and saying "boo" could, in the wrong circumstances, & if I was already in a fearful or spooked state of mind, cause me to react with defence aggression, i.e. I could turn round & wap someone with my handbag or worse!. Consider what even a low level shock could cause a dog to do!
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Wysiwyg
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25-03-2010, 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by wilbar View Post
Those stories are so sad wysiwyg. Just goes to show the damage they can do in the right hands, let alone when used by unsuspecting members of the public who don't know what they're doing.

Unfortunately the manufacturers & advertising blurp say that the collars don't hurt & on a low level perhaps the physical pain is not very bad ~ but it doesn't allow for the startle factor, or take into account the dog's mental & emotional state at the time of the shock. Just someone coming up behind me and saying "boo" could, in the wrong circumstances, & if I was already in a fearful or spooked state of mind, cause me to react with defence aggression, i.e. I could turn round & wap someone with my handbag or worse!. Consider what even a low level shock could cause a dog to do!
Yes, there's the dripping water effect as well (actually not sure if that's the right term but ...! ) where even a tiny feeling gets worse over time due to sensitisation of it.. I get shocked by my car and over time, really try to avoid it as it hurts more now than it ever did - and as we know that's a mild shock

Wys
x
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Wysiwyg
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25-03-2010, 03:57 PM
Originally Posted by SibeVibe View Post
I met a guy this morning with a one yr old Springer. The little lad was brought to his knees last week with an electric shock collar turned up so high the dogs front legs buckled under him when the remote was hit.
How abusive, the poor little fella

The trainer assured the man that it would only take a few sessions to stop the dog chasing sheep. The training had no positive effect what so ever and the owner now feels terrible that he trusted a trainer and put his little guy through such an ordeal.
I believe owners can suffer guilt because they feel taken in and end up hurting their own dog because of some "expert".

Wys
x
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Adam P
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25-03-2010, 05:35 PM
Hi Its me again.

Re the livestock and keeping the dog away, in my experience this is not possible or practical for may owners. I live in devon and there are lots of sheep. I often work with owners who live near or on farms or the moors. They may not be able to drive or may not be able to spare the time or moey to drive the dog to a suitable walk every or msot days. That leaves them with the option of lead walking, unless they have the time and energy to walk the dog enough it's unlikely to satisfy a high energy breed like a springer or collie. Also even lead walking around livestock is not 100% safe with a predatory dog. After all leads break collars slip ect.
I've also met several owners who were pulled over by their dog as it tried to chase or who found the dog did nothing but obsesse aout the sheep the whole time and came back hugely wound up.

The method for using e collars is the most important thing. All decent e collars have different strengths of sensation. Before training you find the lowest level the dog responds to. This respone will NOT be a yelp or jump, the response should be a turn of the head or a brief look around, thats why the collar is low stress the dog is less bothered by it than any other method. Even treats will agitate a dog more as he will be more eager to get the treat than to avoid the sensation of the collar.

With sheep chasing my prefered approach is to use the collar to enforce recall (at this very low level) and to distraction proof with toys and food.
I then take the dog to sheep on a long line, walk around casually and when the dog pays attention to the sheep use the collar (at the low level he just feels it) and move away from the sheep pulling the dog away with the line. This is best done at a big distance with the sheep contained.
While pulling the dog away you continue to hold the utton down so the dog still feels the sensation until he looks or moves away from the sheep, you then release the button instantly. This is why the e collar is so effective the sensation is mild but constant which act s mental pressure, removing it is reinforcing. Scientifically this is negative reinforcement, most people call it pressure and release training.
You repeat this moving steadily closer after each use of the collar until you can walk th dog really close to the contained sheep. At this stage the dog will seek to avoid the sheep by walking away (if you let him ) or looking away.
At this point I would Take the dog away for a break or finish the session there.
The next phase is on a line with sheep lose in the field, your proactive in that you move towards the sheep using the colalr in the above way as needed, onve the dog shows avoidance (usually very quick) you do it off lead. Its really important to begin on lead as the lead is used to how the dog what to do to turn the sensation off.
With repition you can have the owner chase the sheep and the dog will follow for a few strides then stop turn away and start sniffing or moving away (calmly) as the owner closes with the sheep.
This traiing usually takes 2 to 4 hours, ut it's important the dog is taken around othe sheep in different fields to generalise the response.

With other behavioural problems its alabout using the collar to enforce an alternative acceptable behaviour (recall or heel for social aggression) sit for jumping up ect.

Adam
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ClaireandDaisy
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25-03-2010, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
With other behavioural problems its alabout using the collar to enforce an alternative acceptable behaviour (recall or heel for social aggression) sit for jumping up ect.

Adam
Methinks the man doth protest too much. Just because you can`t train without pain, Adam, doesn`t mean it`s right.
If this is the only way you can train a dog, you`re not a very good trainer. JMO.
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Adam P
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25-03-2010, 05:57 PM
Quick point I've been train far longer than I've been using e collars. I like them because there effective and humane.
Additional point no pain involved ever! you always use the colalr at the level the dog just feels, no higher.

Adam
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rune
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25-03-2010, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Quick point I've been train far longer than I've been using e collars. I like them because there effective and humane.
Additional point no pain involved ever! you always use the colalr at the level the dog just feels, no higher.

Adam
Where did you qualify?

rune
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rune
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25-03-2010, 06:05 PM
Slippery slope---first the 'trainer' uses it for severe problems---ie sheep chasing.Then for 'reinforcing acceptable behaviour'.

Wonder how the rest of us manage to do it?

rune
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angied
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25-03-2010, 06:26 PM
not the same but i hav e electric fencing for my horses one still kept escaping watch him do it he was going underneath so tied a piece of wire to his mane and when he went underneath he got a zap on his head you may think its cruel but hes never done it since and the thought of a powerful animal running around isnt good. but the zap taught him a lesson . hes safe and everyone else is safe
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