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Location: Glasgow, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 810
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Originally Posted by
Wysiwyg
Well as I said, the Premack Principle certainly helped me, and I use it now to help my clients too so it's not too bad, you know
What do you mean by "the real problem"? The author gave a few examples which were not that easy.
As I've said, I can vouch for the approach too. But whilst the Beagle related example given wasn't that easy (what is with a Beagle ?
), it is one of the easier-to-solve Beagle related problems! I've described above the real problem that most Beagle owners face - the one that can result in the death of the dog.
Originally Posted by
Wysiwyg
It depends on how much the owner wants something, in my view. MOst situations can be controlled in some way initially, even if they are less controlled in others, or when coming upon them unexpectedly. Then once the required behaviour is conditioned, it is much easier to be in the more difficult situation very often, although of course, not always ,because "life happens" and dog training is not prescriptive.
Yes, this is true to an extent. Most Beagle owners will have one or two 'safe places' where they will let their dogs off-lead. They take the dogs there from an early age and the dog establishes certain predictable habits. They are less likely to run off. Yet as I explained with my friends well-behaved beagle, even in his safe place where he did the same well behaved thing day in and day out he'd still randomly take off. The instinct is strong. Another freind's dog was killed recently when it took off from his 'safe place' and got hit by a train.
The breeder of my youngest was horrified that we let them off-lead - ever! Amongst Beagle owners there's a split - half seem to always keep them on-lead and half let them off and take the risk. Few make headway with training.
Sometimes you do just have to live with a "problem" .. in the sense that, if you choose a breed likely to run off and want to hunt/chase then you do indeed have certain limitations.
I think as dog owners, it doesn't hurt to just accept them, to be honest. Beagles can be smashing little "obedience" or "agility"dogs (anyone who knows Alex Johnson down here knows this, having seen her Pocket and Hector!) but even a well trained one will very occasionally bog off, usually on the scent of a hare or similar. This is the risk taken with this breed.
Same as if people buy salukis, etc, they may do well in obedience or agility, but every so often their dog may do a "wall of death" or run off for a bit. Lots of good training can lessen this but probably not totally erase it.
Exactly!!!!
It's so refreshing to hear someone admit that not all dogs/breeds are the same and not every problem can be solved by bloody 'positive training'. It makes me cross the way some trainers insist that the owners are at fault and then preach some noddy piece of "positive training for dummy's" nonsense that would never in a million years work for a particular dog/breed/problem!!!!
You are quite correct. My Beagles are wonderful at tricks, sports etc. They learn really quickly and the CAN behave like the most well trained Collie you've met. Our oldest learnt the weave polls in a week - she was rock solid and could be sent through, called through...you name it! It's not down to experienced handling - teaching them sports/tricks is childs play. But the trials of the Beagle nature are a tougher nut to crack!
I couldn't care less HOW naughty my Beagles are. I chose the breed because I love them and I don't want to train that out of them.
The one issue that I have is that the dogs have been selectively bred to run free yet because of the traits that have been bred into them it's not safe to let them do what they've been bred to do. This seems almost criminal to me.
So we keep banging our heads of a brick wall trying to do the impossible. We take other approaches to, such us finding controlled outlets for them. They do lots of sports including lure coursing. We've recently purchased a lure and we can use this to let them run free on the beach safe in the knowledge that they are running exactly where we want them to run. We've also just moved to a house with a HUGE garden where they can run and chase all day if they like.
But I'll move heaven and earth to give them more. The oldest is nearly two and a half. Until a few months ago both got off-lead every day in a single safe place and they thrived on it. But the safe habit that we'd established from puppyhood was broken (probably a fox) and we can't get that back.
Having said that, I do know that excellent, advanced training can become like a reflex and it can override the genes - my dog chasing deer (which I hasten to say, i don't encourage!) turning on a sixpence to run back to me, because I am using a predictive command taught to her by me from teenagerhood.
She hardly "thinks", she just responds.
Yes. We taught ours an emergency recall that works just like that. It's hard wired and we can call them off anything. But sadly you can't use it to control them on a daily basis as it breaks it - they quickly learn that nothing you can give them is as good as what you're calling them away from and the hard wiring breaks down.
(I chose a breed that lives to chase, but they are mostly very visually stimulated). I certainly believe that some breeds are harder than others but I do think as I said, we need to appreciate them for what they are and just enjoy them. A great dane will never be a border collie, and hopefully the GD owner will not try to make their dog be like one.
So, so true!
Now I have heard from a number of Beagle and other hound owners that have used a shock collar. I'm not in good enough contact with any of these people to get full details but basically they claim that the use of a shock collar under the guidance of an experienced trainer solved this problem quickly and easily and without undue stress to the dog. One in particular that we met recently claimed that they were considering rehoming their hound because they had so many problems. They'd been to numerous trainers and none could help. The root of the problem was that the dog was frustrated at not getting enough off-lead exercise. They finally found a trainer that used a shock collar. She said that they set up a situation in which the dog would fail (wander off too far, or not return when called). The dog was shocked once - it was startled but not hurt. That was it. Once for failing to recall and once for wandering too far. That was several years ago and the dog has NEVER wandered off since. They can let him off-lead anywhere. He's still wearing the collar, but there haven't been bateries in it for years.
Now yes, I agree that you don't choose a breed and then resort to punishment based training because on a whim you want to change it's instincts. But to give it an infinately better life....?
The difficulty lies in finding the right trainer. I'm sure you'll understand what I mean when I say that most trainers aren't that good. They've been on a few courses and learnt a few techniques. A minority are really skilled and tallented. In the case of positive training it doesn't much matter if you choose a duffer - you can't do so much harm with positive training and most people are capable of teaching the basics. But with any kind of punishment based training technique you really do need someone that's highly skilled and experienced. Someone that's able to recognise and willing to admit if the aproach isn't suited to your dog.