Yes, I realise that . However - If trainers using other methods than ecollars and force can control killer whales they can control these dogs. I've seen dogs from imported lines and I've read a website in the UK where a dog was imported and sent back because in other countries they allow more extreme methods and he allegedly could not be handled by methods used here, not sure if the dog got as far as being given a handler. However, if a dog is used to a certain type of handling, that is all they know and they respond in kind or behave in a way that appears to support such training.

If the person who imported the dog is who I think he is, he was happy to admit using prong collars and long lines to stop a dog, plus ecollars, although of course our police do not use those. Hardly says anything about how the imported dog or any dog would behave [I]in different hands.[/I] with longer term different training. In fact some dogs would not give in to such treatment and get worse and fight more. Then of course the ecollar is brought in because "it's the only way" when clearly it is not I think though that once in a certain mode of method then it's maybe hard to accept that other methods might work.

Dog training really does not need harsh methods, and if it allegedly does, then it's become too ridiculous for words to breed such dogs.

It seems it is more for the male trainers and winning cups than for the dogs anyway... (correct me please if I am wrong): to me there is no partnership, no beauty and no real training. Real training is getting a dog to obey without force - that is skill

Wys
x

Yes of course. Especially on high levels. I'd avoid extreme pain and mental confusion any day especially if it was my owner doing it to me (although depending on how it's done, the dogs do not necessarily realise it is the owner shocking them).

Also for me one of the main points is that dogs often tread on snakes by accident when playing/running - so therefore the whole ecollar/snake avoidance method is blown right out of the water as dogs can be bitten BY ACCIDENT

Wys
x

I was beginning to think is it a male thing? The vast majority of those advocating dominance and the use of harsh training methods are men. I've been watching a couple of episodes of dog borstal as well and both the women trainers on there who do the dominance thing are erm a bit butch!
Maybe it's testosterone driven.
Becky

I do indeed base my training on love and trust as I know you do Topbarks

Wys
x

No, but we were talking about Daddy I think weren't we? If the ecollar was being used as an aversion tool he'd not be yelping from surprise but from pain. I'd put money on it

Wys
x

Thanks for that Johan, I do agree with you there. I can also understand the view of keeping dogs healthy with sports needs, however I do wonder how many of these dogs become old and are able to lie by the fire when they are 13, 14, 15 and 16 years of age?

I think it is too tough (esp, if you can imagine, a dog trained with ecollar may not feel able to show lack of ability to get over it when arthritis kicks in).

How long is the working dogs' lives in this sport, out of interest?

Wys
x

Normally a dog stays in competition until he is 9 or 10. At that point they are over the top and then they are retired. The dog that was used to teach me to decoy was 14 riddled with arthritis but when he saw a decoy no trace of limping could be seen. That dog passed away on Christmas evening at the age of 17 before the fireplace.
As for trophies being important The dog in the video has won the vast majority of the trails he competed in. Meaning that 19 other competitors knew that they wouldn't have much chance to win. This goes for all the dogs Romain has brought to competition.
Last year one of my dogs got injured. It took 6 months to recover and get him to competition level again. He is 5 and, although he has 4 good years of competition in him, i retired him because he is prone to get the same injury again.

And for your last comment jumps are never thought with compulsion.

Greetings

Johan

I think if a dog is bred to be so "extreme" that the only way to train it is to use e-collars, then that dog has no business being bred in the first place.

Here is a thought

You need extreme dogs to get good dogs in the future.

It is from these extreme dogs that police and military dogs all over the world come from.

How come that a relatively small population of dogs has taken over the "title" of best breed for police and army dog from a much larger and recognized breed?

Ok, but you yourself said you sold a "weaker" dog to the UK police and this dog turned out to be too much for any of the handlers to control.
So to me that kind of negates your argument?

Why breed dogs that need such hard handling when you can get great results using kinder more trusting methods?