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Colin
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28-03-2008, 06:21 PM
Yes I agree black dogs can be difficult to photo properly, hence why I had to see the other photos Mo posted to clarify my opinion on his coat and jaw line.

Dawn I'm afraid we are going to have to disagree about his jaw being undershot. My boy Duke who very sadly is no longer with us as he passed away a few years ago came from a German breeder in Nauen as a 9 week old puppy and we got him when he was just under 1 year old, but his jaw line was a lot stronger than Merlin's, plus if you compare Merlin's jaw and the first and third photos you posted, you can clearly see the difference between the three dogs.

Yes I agree that some of the English dobes that have been breed over the past ten or so years have a week jaw line, but to make such a sweeping statement as to say that most of them have is just wrong. I also don't disagree with you about the continental breed standard being higher than over here, but I still stick by my opinion that Marlin is by no way the perfect dog Mo says he is.

Put it this way if he was to be put up against a German champion dobe he would not stand a chance. If we can find fault with him just by looking at his photo's, and we are not even qualified judges, then a qualified judge would not even place him. Look at it this way you have already mentioned that his coat looks a bit smudgy and I have also said that his coat is patchy, so if we can see faults in him by the photos supplied, what do you think a judge will see? Ok he might have a better jaw line then an English dobe that has been poorly breed, but he is nowhere near perfect, and I also don't think he warrants an excellent 1 for his confirmation. I also know of quite a few English breed dobes that are better looking than him.

Just out of curiosity have you ever owned a dobe before? As I said in post 20 I have had dobes in my life for 49 years, so believe me when I say that I know what I’m talking about concerning this breed of dog, and Merlin has got a undershot jaw.
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Mahooli
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28-03-2008, 07:51 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't undershot mean bottom jaw protruding in front of the top jaw? Well how can you say from these pictures that he is undershot?
I suppose one way to resolve this is a picture of his bite.
Becky
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Meg
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28-03-2008, 07:57 PM
What a lovely dog Merlin is

I don't know how anyone can tell if a dog is undershot from looking at a head shot I certainly couldn't and would need to see a picture of the the bite (and preferably to examine the dogs mouth to be sure before condemning it) ....
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Anne-Marie
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28-03-2008, 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by fluffybunnyfeet View Post
I am going to be a very bad boy here but.......

Why has it been butchered? and its undershot, eyes are too round and if its a euro dog likely too tall but judges seem to skim over this point.

Hate docked dobes and ear cropping is just plain bloodly cruel.
Originally Posted by Colin View Post
Yes I agree black dogs can be difficult to photo properly, hence why I had to see the other photos Mo posted to clarify my opinion on his coat and jaw line.

Dawn I'm afraid we are going to have to disagree about his jaw being undershot. My boy Duke who very sadly is no longer with us as he passed away a few years ago came from a German breeder in Nauen as a 9 week old puppy and we got him when he was just under 1 year old, but his jaw line was a lot stronger than Merlin's, plus if you compare Merlin's jaw and the first and third photos you posted, you can clearly see the difference between the three dogs.

Yes I agree that some of the English dobes that have been breed over the past ten or so years have a week jaw line, but to make such a sweeping statement as to say that most of them have is just wrong. I also don't disagree with you about the continental breed standard being higher than over here, but I still stick by my opinion that Marlin is by no way the perfect dog Mo says he is.

Put it this way if he was to be put up against a German champion dobe he would be laughed out of the arena. If we can find fault with him just by looking at a photo, because even you have mentioned that his coat looks a bit smudgy, then he just wouldn't stand a chance in a show. Ok he might have a better jaw line then an English dobe that has been poorly breed, but he is nowhere near perfect. I also know of quite a few English breed dobes that would put him to shame.

Just out of curiosity have you ever owned a dobe before? As I said in post 20 I have had dobes in my life for 49 years, so believe me when I say that I know what I’m talking about concerning this breed of dog, and Merlin has got a undershot jaw.

When members put their dogs up for a critique for other members to share opinions, they should not be subjected to inflammatory remarks. Surely you can critique without making such personal comments?

I think both these comments are out of order and insulting to the OP, not to mention rude!

At least Colin did say some good points in amongst his critique, but still I think that comment about being laughed out of the ring was uncalled for?

To my mind a critique should be rather like the ones Judges provide for an exhibitor (like in Our Dogs/Dog World), stating strengths and weaknesses of the individual dog. Constructive critique/criticism should be the watchwords

Bilclaire is a relatively new member and shouldn't feel they have to justify why their dog has cropped ears! We should be setting a good example here, Dogsey is supposed to be a welcoming forum!
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Lionhound
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28-03-2008, 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by Anne-Marie View Post





When members put their dogs up for a critique for other members to share opinions, they should not be subjected to inflammatory remarks. Surely you can critique without making such personal comments?

I think both these comments are out of order and insulting to the OP, not to mention rude!

At least Colin did say some good points in amongst his critique, but still I think that comment about being laughed out of the ring was uncalled for?

To my mind a critique should be rather like the ones Judges provide for an exhibitor (like in Our Dogs/Dog World), stating strengths and weaknesses of the individual dog. Constructive critique/criticism should be the watchwords

Bilclaire is a relatively new member and shouldn't feel they have to justify why their dog has cropped ears! We should be setting a good example here, Dogsey is supposed to be a welcoming forum!
Well said
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Stormey
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28-03-2008, 08:38 PM
Originally Posted by Anne-Marie View Post





When members put their dogs up for a critique for other members to share opinions, they should not be subjected to inflammatory remarks. Surely you can critique without making such personal comments?

I think both these comments are out of order and insulting to the OP, not to mention rude!

At least Colin did say some good points in amongst his critique, but still I think that comment about being laughed out of the ring was uncalled for?

To my mind a critique should be rather like the ones Judges provide for an exhibitor (like in Our Dogs/Dog World), stating strengths and weaknesses of the individual dog. Constructive critique/criticism should be the watchwords

Bilclaire is a relatively new member and shouldn't feel they have to justify why their dog has cropped ears! We should be setting a good example here, Dogsey is supposed to be a welcoming forum!
Nicely put.
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Shona
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28-03-2008, 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
What a lovely dog Merlin is

I don't know how anyone can tell if a dog is undershot from looking at a head shot I certainly couldn't and would need to see a picture of the the bite (and preferably to examine the dogs mouth to be sure before condemning it) ....
dont think anyone is condemning the dog, its could just be the angle of the shot, but to be honest when people use words such as condemning it makes it all look rather rude,

As said by others it could be the photo, I truely wish people would not put words in others mouths, I would say often you could tell from a head shot were the problem bad enough, as said this one is not,
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Shona
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28-03-2008, 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by Mahooli View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't undershot mean bottom jaw protruding in front of the top jaw? Well how can you say from these pictures that he is undershot?
I suppose one way to resolve this is a picture of his bite.
Becky
yes you are correct in that becky,, my comment should have read overshot, begging my pardon, but then again I know little about dobs,
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Azz
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28-03-2008, 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by Anne-Marie View Post
When members put their dogs up for a critique for other members to share opinions, they should not be subjected to inflammatory remarks. Surely you can critique without making such personal comments?

I think both these comments are out of order and insulting to the OP, not to mention rude!
Agree with Anne Marie - if you can't put across a critique without being pleasant then stay out of this section.

Please edit your post Colin or it will be removed completely.
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Borderdawn
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28-03-2008, 09:27 PM
Originally Posted by Colin View Post
Yes I agree black dogs can be difficult to photo properly, hence why I had to see the other photos Mo posted to clarify my opinion on his coat and jaw line.

Dawn I'm afraid we are going to have to disagree about his jaw being undershot. My boy Duke who very sadly is no longer with us as he passed away a few years ago came from a German breeder in Nauen as a 9 week old puppy and we got him when he was just under 1 year old, but his jaw line was a lot stronger than Merlin's, plus if you compare Merlin's jaw and the first and third photos you posted, you can clearly see the difference between the three dogs.

Yes I agree that some of the English dobes that have been breed over the past ten or so years have a week jaw line, but to make such a sweeping statement as to say that most of them have is just wrong. I also don't disagree with you about the continental breed standard being higher than over here, but I still stick by my opinion that Marlin is by no way the perfect dog Mo says he is.

Put it this way if he was to be put up against a German champion dobe he would be laughed out of the arena. If we can find fault with him just by looking at a photo, because even you have mentioned that his coat looks a bit smudgy, then he just wouldn't stand a chance in a show. Ok he might have a better jaw line then an English dobe that has been poorly breed, but he is nowhere near perfect. I also know of quite a few English breed dobes that would put him to shame.

Just out of curiosity have you ever owned a dobe before? As I said in post 20 I have had dobes in my life for 49 years, so believe me when I say that I know what I’m talking about concerning this breed of dog, and Merlin has got a undershot jaw.
Yes, 2 males, one I trialed and did obedience with, the other a rescued guard Dog. My closest friends own 11 between them, one gives CC'c in the breed, the other is on the A2 list, one has exhibited for over 30yrs the other for 20yrs. I am very familiar with them yes, both English lines and continental. I also co-own my boss's Dobe. We showed him for a while, but he didnt like it. I also showed my first one too. The reason i dont have one now is the multiple health issues with them.

Im sorry Colin, we will have to disagree on what you think is a decent Dobermann, because if you seriously think Merlin wouldnt cut it on the continent, well, I truly do not think you have read the standard, and to KNOW he has an undershot jaw is quite remarkable! Photographs are deceiving, a Dopbe is very difficult to disguise, IMO that Dog is as near as damn it to a very high standard Dog fitting the breed standard well.

Originally Posted by Mahooli View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't undershot mean bottom jaw protruding in front of the top jaw? Well how can you say from these pictures that he is undershot?
I suppose one way to resolve this is a picture of his bite.
Becky
Youre right Becky, how on earth you can tell, especially when the dogs mouth is OPEN is totally beyond me.
Originally Posted by Anne-Marie View Post



When members put their dogs up for a critique for other members to share opinions, they should not be subjected to inflammatory remarks. Surely you can critique without making such personal comments?

I think both these comments are out of order and insulting to the OP, not to mention rude!

At least Colin did say some good points in amongst his critique, but still I think that comment about being laughed out of the ring was uncalled for?

To my mind a critique should be rather like the ones Judges provide for an exhibitor (like in Our Dogs/Dog World), stating strengths and weaknesses of the individual dog. Constructive critique/criticism should be the watchwords

Bilclaire is a relatively new member and shouldn't feel they have to justify why their dog has cropped ears! We should be setting a good example here, Dogsey is supposed to be a welcoming forum!
Excellent post Anne Marie.
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