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Trouble
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25-02-2008, 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by mse2ponder View Post
exactly.. the elephants in the example are exhibiting a pscychological condition.. however i bet your dogs would clear it if asked - ie. they know that they can clear it but choose not to, rather than believe they are incapable/helpless...
Yes they would, although Syd's a lazy git and would probably only do it the once to prove he could, Rio however would happily do it all day long. Frank would use Diesel as a springboard to get over
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Trouble
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25-02-2008, 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by mishflynn View Post
Thank you, how do you rate them out of interest?

Does he ever incorparte "play" into the exercise or Affection do you know?

id actually like to edit my list to

1.Affection
2.Play
3.mental exercise
4.physical exercise
5.discipline
Sorry I missed this earlier

It's a tricky one, because Physical Exercise is extremely important to both me and my dogs, so that one is never missed. Whatever the weather and however I feel we spend a good 90 mins to 2 hours out in the woods. So I would put that as my number 1.
I build the discipline, the mental exercise, play and affection into that time when we're out.
We obviously do mental exercise, discipline, play and affection at home too.
With Cesar yes he does incorporate them but he is quite adamant that exercise is the most important of all.

His typical day and I quote (although I've shortened it a bit)
On an average workday I arrive at the centre at 6.00am and lets the dogs out into the yard to relieve themselves.
The dogs are loaded into the van and they reach the mountains no later than 6.30am We stay there for about 4 hours. Alternating vigorous exercise. moderate exercise and rest.
He leads and they follow, they are a motley crew of rejects rescues and some clients dogs, pit bulls, rotties. dobies, german shepherds, springer spaniels down to chihuahuas. While he's running the dogs are off leash. Some dogs are left at home and exercised in various other ways more suitable to their needs. As diverse as they are they work together as a pack, they follow him, they obey him and cooperate with one and other. When walking or running the dogs of all breeds are indistinguisable but when they rest they break into breeds, the rotties all lay together, the gsd's go together. the pitbulls all go together. etc Then when they set off again they all fall in as if there were no differences.
Personally I'd be on my knees

Play is an added extra not a substitute for exercise and he uses it to allow various breeds express their special needs and abilities, be that fetch, swimming, frisbee, obstacle courses. Whatever your pleasure and whatever your dogs talent. You decide what and for how long.

Affection given freely at appropriate times, when the dog is calm. After the dog has changed his unwanted behaviour into a desired behaviour. After a dog has responded to a rule or a command.
The wrong time is when a dog is fearful, anxious, possesive, dominant, aggressive, whining, begging or barking. Or breaking any of the rules you have set.

And that was the short version
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scarter
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25-02-2008, 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by JoedeeUK
You cannot compare an elephant to a dog in their learning processes, elephants have to be"tamed"in order to get them to accept their change from being totally wild to being semi domesticated. Dogs are already domesticated & need to be educated not "tamed"
I wasn't making a comparison between dogs and elephants. I was just using that example of learned helplessness in elephants to show that many popular techniques used in dog training aren't really that different. Or at least, don't appear to be that different.

So whilst you could perhaps argue that some of Ceasar Millan's methods rely on learned helplessness so do many others.

Here's a common dog training method that I think uses a similar 'technique'. To stop a dog pulling on the lead simply stop every time the lead goes tight - or reverse direction. Eventually the dog will learn that pulling doesn't get him the result that he wants and he'll stop trying. Just like the elephants!!

Now if I had one dog trained to walk to heel without pulling by giving it treats, and another by stopping or changing direction whenever it pulled would there be any difference in the end result? Is the treat trained dog walking to heel for different reasons than the 'stop or change direction' trained dog? And what about people that use both methods?

Accepting someone as boss is a variation on the same theme. Even amongst humans certain people have a presence - an air of authority and we're happy to accept orders from them without question. Others might have the same experience, tallent and knowlege but for some reason they don't have that air of authority. So we are more likely to challenge their authority. We're more likely to have run-ins with them.

So going back to the example of training the dog to walk on the lead without pulling.

- One approach gets the dog to submit to your will by enticing it with treats.
- One approach gets the dog to submit to your will by not letting it get the result that it wants when it does the wrong thing.
- Ceasar's approach might be to give off an air of authority that causes the dog to just do what he asks without the need to challenge him umpteen times before the penny drops.

None of the approaches are cruel in my view. They all end up in the same place. I would guess that the choice of what's best between the first two would depend a lot upon what makes your dog tick. But if you can pull it off ceasar's way then I'd have thought that's the happiest outcome for all concerned! You get to the point where you want to be without the need for umpteen trial runs!! I know when I'm around people that have an air of confidence and authority I feel more relaxed - simply because I don't feel the need to constantly assess the situation and make decisions for myself. I trust that they've got everything under control. And I will often follow their instructions without thinking simply because something in my subconscious doesn't register that I have an option to ignore them.
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scarter
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25-02-2008, 08:48 PM
This learned helplessness does frequently work the other way around too. I'm sure plenty of dog owners that start out full of determination not to let their dog on the furniture have been ground down by their determined little mutts. Eventually they stop trying to keep the dog of the couch because they know it simply won't work. Their mutts have trained them using learned helplessness methods

And then someone like Ceasar Millan comes along and makes them realise that they aren't as helpless as their clever little mutt made them think they were.....
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mse2ponder
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25-02-2008, 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by scarter View Post
I wasn't making a comparison between dogs and elephants. I was just using that example of learned helplessness in elephants to show that many popular techniques used in dog training aren't really that different. Or at least, don't appear to be that different.

So whilst you could perhaps argue that some of Ceasar Millan's methods rely on learned helplessness so do many others.

Here's a common dog training method that I think uses a similar 'technique'. To stop a dog pulling on the lead simply stop every time the lead goes tight - or reverse direction. Eventually the dog will learn that pulling doesn't get him the result that he wants and he'll stop trying. Just like the elephants!!
but learned helplessness is the effect of inescapable punishments - not merely conditioning.
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JoedeeUK
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25-02-2008, 10:37 PM
Originally Posted by scarter View Post
I wasn't making a comparison between dogs and elephants. I was just using that example of learned helplessness in elephants to show that many popular techniques used in dog training aren't really that different. Or at least, don't appear to be that different.

So whilst you could perhaps argue that some of Ceasar Millan's methods rely on learned helplessness so do many others.

Here's a common dog training method that I think uses a similar 'technique'. To stop a dog pulling on the lead simply stop every time the lead goes tight - or reverse direction. Eventually the dog will learn that pulling doesn't get him the result that he wants and he'll stop trying. Just like the elephants!!

Now if I had one dog trained to walk to heel without pulling by giving it treats, and another by stopping or changing direction whenever it pulled would there be any difference in the end result? Is the treat trained dog walking to heel for different reasons than the 'stop or change direction' trained dog? And what about people that use both methods?

Accepting someone as boss is a variation on the same theme. Even amongst humans certain people have a presence - an air of authority and we're happy to accept orders from them without question. Others might have the same experience, tallent and knowlege but for some reason they don't have that air of authority. So we are more likely to challenge their authority. We're more likely to have run-ins with them.

So going back to the example of training the dog to walk on the lead without pulling.

- One approach gets the dog to submit to your will by enticing it with treats.
- One approach gets the dog to submit to your will by not letting it get the result that it wants when it does the wrong thing.
- Ceasar's approach might be to give off an air of authority that causes the dog to just do what he asks without the need to challenge him umpteen times before the penny drops.

None of the approaches are cruel in my view. They all end up in the same place. I would guess that the choice of what's best between the first two would depend a lot upon what makes your dog tick. But if you can pull it off ceasar's way then I'd have thought that's the happiest outcome for all concerned! You get to the point where you want to be without the need for umpteen trial runs!! I know when I'm around people that have an air of confidence and authority I feel more relaxed - simply because I don't feel the need to constantly assess the situation and make decisions for myself. I trust that they've got everything under control. And I will often follow their instructions without thinking simply because something in my subconscious doesn't register that I have an option to ignore them.

Wow training that has been out of date for 20 + years

My dogs do not pull on the lead why ? because they are all trained off lead so never learn to pull. My dogs do not"submit"to my will, they learn what reaps them the reward & most of the time their behaviour is that which gets them the reward, however they are not machines & can & do things that I would prefer them not to have learnt.

CM uses fear, compulsion & physical & mental punishment on dogs that have never been treated correctly. Joe Public thinks because of programs like his that correction can be completed in a very short period of time & that the same method(& he really does only have one method)suits all dogs.

I have heard from my friends in the states that he is now incorporating treats into"his"method

Many people see Border Collies as easy to train, because they are bred to work, but it's being able to channel that drive to work that needs time & patience to ensure that the dog doesn't learn bad as well as desired behaviours
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colliemad
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26-02-2008, 01:54 AM
Originally Posted by scarter View Post
But if you can pull it off ceasar's way then I'd have thought that's the happiest outcome for all concerned!


http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/testimonials/index.php

this is from his website and I remember watching bits of this episode while I was doing something more important

it would appear that CM has worked very well with the owners but inbetween praising him they are still having fights between the dogs and at the end asking for help. It also says that the first day they didn't get a chance to see him work with the dogs so who knows what he might have done to them that you didn't see on the programme, the owners don't even know In fact it was not until the follow up programme that they had any idea what it was that they were supposed to be doing yet there was some improvement so it would seem that they were sorting it slowly without using his techniques The last testimonial from the lady with the chi can be disregarded totally as she now works for him
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Gnasher
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26-02-2008, 02:51 PM
Hi guys: I've been otherwise occupied since Sunday with the new 4 legged addition to our family ... it panned out according to plan thank goodness. It was nerve wracking, but we are now the proud owners of another Husky cross Mal. Not an alpha male this time, but he is the spit of Hal to look at and very similar to him in behavioural terms ... just much more obedient !! With a near perfect recall !! It was so spooky to call him, and have him come roaring straight back to me, something which Hal would only do if you ran away in the opposite direction !

Immediately, we started as we meant to go on ... using Cesar's calm assertive energy, setting the rules, boundaries and limitations right from the start. I am happy to say it has worked an absolute treat. Although the dog's recall is good, his manners are not. He would not sit and wait calmly whilst you placed his food bowl on the floor, he would barge past you through a doorway, or drag you down a stairway when on the lead. He would jump up at you given half the chance. Nothing too serious, just bad manners.

It is now only Tuesday, and we have him sitting calmly for his food bowl or chicken wings to be placed on the floor in front of him, and will stay until told he can begin to eat. He has stopped barging through doorways - I haven't had the opportunity to try him down a staircase since yesterday so I can't report on that - but he now has virtually stopped pulling on the lead and will sit when told to, even when there is something more exciting going on (such as a neighbour's chickens who had escaped into the field running around sqawking when they saw him !).

I have to say I am amazed. The dog is, of course, unsettled, having been rehomed, and so therefore this could well be a False Dawn as it were, but I don't think so. I see in his eyes the same light of recognition, realisation and acceptance that I saw in Hal's eyes when I first started using Cesar's Way. He has settled in with us so well, and gives us so much love and affection, bless him. I am afraid no housework has been done since he arrived, I am having far too much fun with him to worry about such trivia!

I think for these "difficult" northern breeds in particular, Cesar's Way works ... quickly, kindly and effectively. I am so pleased with him, his arrival hasn't eased the pain and misery of losing Hal, but it has made it more bearable. And already he is becoming the well behaved, well balanced obedient and happy dog that I really want to be able to achieve. I made so many mistakes with Hal, I am really lucky to be given this second chance with a dog so similar to him in many respects. I hope I don't let him down.
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bajaluna
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26-02-2008, 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by spettadog View Post
Hi there

I have to say I am really disappointed at how some of the more experienced people on this site see - and rate CM. People that I would have thought would have known better and been able to see through the hype.

I am a moderator on another site and I had never heard of the guy until about a year ago when one of the members from the US mentioned this guy and asked if we'd seen him. Because I like to keep up to date with issues relating to dog behaviour I decided to watch the programme. All I can say is what I saw really distressed me - and also one of my friends who was with me at the time (and she is no dog behaviourist!).

I thought this forum was all about advocating kind, reward based behaviour and training. I didnt think it was about advocating - and supporting - the use of prong collars (whether they are supplied by the owner or not!), e-collars, contraptions that fit around a dog's neck so it can't move; kicking dogs; alpha rolls and basically bullying dogs into submission. PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG BUT CM USES ALL THESE METHODS WHICH ARE ABSOLUTELY NOT POSITIVE, REWARD BASED STRATEGIES. Anybody with a real knowledge of dogs and dog behaviour can recognise in an instant when a dog is distressed, stressed and fearful. That is exactly what I saw when I watched his "show". Because that is all that it is; a show that is dedicated to CM.

CM has no real methods of dealing with dogs; in fact, I am degree educated and have spent all my career working in communication, and I couldnt understand what exactly he was trying to say - or what he was trying to advocate to the owners!!! To me the man is a bully. If anybody came into my house and treated my dogs like that I would be asking him to leave - NO - forcing him to leave through the window!!!!!!

Now, before anybody tells me I am into all the clicker training crap and anthromorphisise (sp!) my dogs. Let me tell you categorically that I am not and I do not!!!

I have a variety of dogs - some I have reared from puppies, one that I have had since she was 9 months and came from the rescue and one who was so severely traumatised when I took him from a family that I spent a long time trying to "rehabilitate" him and none of the methods I used were anywhere near what CM would have advised me to do. I now have a dog that has great trust in humans, loves everybody and everything and everybody loves him. I must have done something right!!!

All my dogs have routine, plenty of relevant exercise (and by that I mean time to sniff, hunt, play and interact with other dogs!), they eat good, nutritious food and they are well loved - and they know it. They all sleep in my bedroom at night and lounge about on sofas during the day. I have not one dog that has a behaviour problem that I see as a "problem that can't be fixed if I put some work into fixing it - kindly!!! The problem is that most people are lazy and expect others to do it for them without really taking the time to find out what the underlying problem is. Fix that, and the problem is eliminated.

Anybody who needs to look at TV programmes to get guidance about dog behaviour or training IMO doesnt really know dogs. Having worked in the industry I know that they wouldnt show something that wasnt going to get the ratings hence the reason VS wears her dominatrix outfits; CM does all the showbiz stuff and Dog Borstal has all the music, hard man shots etc., to go along with it.

Why dont people just concentrate on achieving a bond with their dogs. Make yourself so interesting to the dog by playing, interacting, taking them for lively fun walks and - most importantly - before you try out anything you see on the TV - think how you would feel if somebody did that to you. Don't treat your dogs with disrespect and try to "dominate" them; they dont understand that. All any animal wants is somebody to try and understand them.

There is no quick fix for a behaviour problem with a dog. You will learn absolutely nothing about true dog behaviour by watching these types of programmes. What you will learn is how to do it all wrong and the only "being" that will be affected is your dog. Dogs are sentient animals, they love to be with us and be part of our world. Stop thinking about methods and theories and start concentrating on your relationship with your dog. Everything will then just fall into place.

Give your dog what it needs to survive; make its life happy; and most of all dont get bogged down with all the showbiz rubbish. Enjoy your dog. You never know you might just learn more than you are seeing on the TV.

Spettadog
you dont have to be a professional to own a dog,anyone with human form can get one,no exams,no IQ test,if there was no need for these programs they wouldnt be so successful and if the only people allowed to own dogs were "dog people" then no one would understand dogs
were you born with the knowledge you have about dogs?
people who dont know need to learn somewhere, and everyone of those people has the right to decide how,without being ridiculed or looked down on by people like you.
If CM helps one dog and one owner (and he did help me)
then thats good enough,the fact that he helps thousands
of dogs in shelters,with all the money from his "showbiz crap"is also good enough.
People join these forums to learn and you would be better served helping as you seem to think you are the only one who knows how to treat dogs, rather than implying they are not good enough in your opinion to own a dog
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mishflynn
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26-02-2008, 04:53 PM
Ok Question.

Pro CMers would you sell a puppy (that you bred) to someone who was anti CM?

Anti CMerswould you sell a puppy (that you bred) to someone who was pro CM?

Id not sell a puppy to someone who is Pro CM, (though i might to trouble as they seem very sensible!)
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