Our Kito has a pedigree to die for and we took him to three shows. He got two thirds. One judge came up to me and said that I had the best looking dog in the ring ( I knew that) but since I did not know what I was doing then neither did the dog. He quite enjoyed it but I did not when I saw some of the things others got up to. Dobermans can be a handful but giving them something to calm them down was not for me.
Why should a dog that does not like shows yet has an excellent pedigree not be bred? Here in Scotland most of the Dobi's look like whippets ( nothing wrong with whippets) as there is far to much ' in' breeding. Most of the breeders I have met go to shows in order to get more money when they eventually breed their dogs.

So I do not think a dog has to prove itself before it can be bred. Its not only show dogs that have something to pass on.

It was probably rescue remedy which is herbal, not harmful. many people give this, not just for showing, but for training, rescue dogs, anxiety sufferers, etc it's for humans too and is not sinister.

Because a piece of paper doesn't tell anyone that the dog actually looks like it should, and even Champions can throw out the odd donkey in a litter. Just because it has a pedigree to die for does not mean it's a good example of the breed. As soon as you start diverting away from how the dog 'should' look, you start diverting away from how the dog will end up looking. Once you ignore the breed standard, dogs will start bringing faults into it, that will eventually stop the dog looking like it should. Therefore a Dobe will no longer look like a Dobe.

Do you know what 'in-breeding' actually is ?? I would say the reason most of them look this way, is because of the reason state above.

Are you saying that show kennels charge more for puppies ?? Because I know a few Dobe breeders who have never thought like that and never would. In fact I've never heard of charging more for puppies from show dogs in ANY breed.

Also, I have to say I used to think that showing was just a beauty contest for dogs, until I started reading breed standards etc. You realise that the dog is supposed to 'be' a certain way for various reasons (to do the job it was bred to do properly etc). In my breed, if a dog has too long legs, or a stop that is too deep, it would suffer, as it would if the coat was too long, so therefore it's not a good example of the breed and should not be bred from. The pedigree it has is irrelevant at that point and means very little.

If everyone ignored breed standards, all dogs would eventually look like crossbreeds. Then no-one would be able to go and buy a puppy of the breed they wanted !

I think in some breeds temprament tests would be a good idea, {then I own rottys I would say that} with aggression and nervy dogs being excluded from competiton or something along those lines, My first love is training dogs, not nessisarily for there original purprose,,,, I tried tegan with the sheep once along with the farm collie and the police cars appeared quickly,,,, they got a fair amount of calls quickly saying there was a rottwieler killing sheep,,,, Tegan hates lamb
So never really tried the cattle, I tend to train the dogs now to walk quietly through the cattle and sheep, I dont have the knowlage to train a dog in herding so feel its wrong to encourage them to go after if you know what I mean,,, I thought tegan would be good at the sheep but the collie kept getting them all together and Tegan kept splitting them up and taking them the any direction really, but she is defo not killing any,,,.
they all do stuff be it obed, clicker, or whatever,,,,,first then showing is second place to that,,,,I feel to breed I need to show, It is helpful, I have learned a lot in my few short years of showing for breed, mostly how to duck and dive the back stabbing though,,,lol

My allegiance is with the other side of this debate but I've got to admit... this must be the best sentence I've read on dogsey.

I was thinking the same thing..........I tried explaining the same thing and it took me around 500 words, yet this explanation is so short and simple, Brilliant

aw shucks
Becky

malady will you empty your pm i cant pm you thanx xxzb

Malady.

Quite a long reply and I shall do my best to address some of the points you make.

First off.....you are correct that some....some...of the calm down stuff may very well be herbal, but so what? I have seen breeders showing dogs and shoving handfuls of the stuff down the dogs throat. Is this natural? I think not.
My boy was a biter for more than a year but not once did I consider 'drugging' him. Patience was the cure.

Can you please point out where I said one should divert away from the standard? Are you saying that a champion would sire or a bitch have better standard of pups than a dog that has not been shown? This is simply not the case in all circumstances. I am certain that if I had a dog that I wanted to breed and found a bitch the owner of said bitch would not breed with mine if he was not up to 'standard'.

Similarly just because a champion has been bred it does not follow that any of the offspring will win even a local show. Its the training that wins shows not the standard. As I said earlier my dog was the best looking in the ring but neither of ou had a clue what we were doing there so he did not win.

Just for your information I think I would know more about 'in' breeding, and genetics than most people. I mentioned Scottish Dobi's as I know for a fact that several years ago people who took their bitches south for breeding were snubbed by Scottish owners and breeders, oh and at shows also......Most of the 'home based ' breeders preferred to breed with Scottish dogs and had been doing so since the year dot I would think. Indeed it was so bad I went to Bedford to buy my current Dobi.

Are you saying that dog breeders, all dog breeders, are above board? So pray tell me why people show dogs, breed them then sell the puppies? Its to make money in most, but not all, cases. I paid £800 for my current Dobi which is about £ 150 - 200 more than the average. Why? Because of his pedigree and not the shows his parents won. Why did he cost more than the average? Because of the shows his parents won....and his pedigree.

Breed standards.....at no point did I state they should be ignored. I do however say that just because your dog won a show or three does not mean it would be better than a dog that has not been shown. I have had many an offer to breed our dog and he aint won a thing but he is a great looking boy....just like his owner as it happens!

Dog breeders......we had one raided up here only last month, cage upon cage upon cage, they aint all good you know. I know people who bought pups from this breeder and have won shows with them which kind of proves a point I think.

If it weren't for people like us show people, striving to keep the breeds looking like they should, you 'pet' owners wouldn't have any 'breeds' to choose from !!!!
Malady i think that is rather a blinkered view point. This might be the case for your breed and some others but as you are obviously an expert in your field, can you honestly say that all show breeds today look just like there working cousins. One case in point,Bedlingtons, i don't know if your familiar with the breed, but they have been bred out of all recognition for the sake of the show ring. There are shows and there are shows and the bigger they are the worse the type of dog appears to be. If i was looking for a lab for arguments sake, my first choice cirtainly wouldnt be one from a show breeder, thats just my personal opinion. If anyone shows dogs for whatever reason, of coarse they will defend there corner. Why would they vote for working strain type breeds, there not going to admit that they might just be the better of the two

I know many many people who have bought 'working' type lines and have been disappointed with what they have because they don't look like the breed they expected. I think breeders should be far more honest and open as to which type they have and don't show a litter of puppies to people until they have seen the adults so they know what their pup will probably turn out like.
Becky