Help with training retrieve

Parker is now 9 years old and has quite a good standard of obedience and trick training but we have never got anywhere with the retrieve. I blame myself as the club I used to attend with them had a trainer who was quite forceful and because Parker wouldn't hold the dumb-bell she told me to practice at home and MAKE him hold it in his mouth physically. I did this (yes -stupid me!) and Cherry got very upset and started whimpering and Parker wasn't too happy either. When I told the trainer this she sort of scoffed and inferred I was making this up.

Anyway, after this I have sort of given up teaching him to retrieve as I just don't think he is a "natural" at it and the above experience put me off.

Any ideas?

What is the meaning of “retrieve”?

1. For the owner it means “to regain possession of”
2. For the dog it should mean “to recover by investigation” (in order to achieve the above)!

The retrieve itself is not one behaviour, it is a chain of behaviours not all of which are necessary depending upon the discipline you may be training for:

 The sit and wait (self control is required as a dog should retrieve NOTHING until and unless specifically told to) It is the owner who determines what the dog should be retrieving, where and when. Dogs which instigate games by picking up toys, sticks have gone “self employed” and may retrieve, but on their terms not ours.
 The mark (this may be necessary for example in the field to retrieve a shot bird quickly to hand, it also maximises speed in the retrieve exercises in Obedience, Schutzhund, GWT and Working Trials). However it is not required for the “blind” retrieve in GWT or the search square exercise in Working Trials. Dogs should be trained in both seen and blind retrieves in order to develop tenacity.
 The pick up (obviously if the dog does not pick up the item you wish to be retrieved you are unable to regain possession of the item).
 The hold (dogs have to learn how to hold the article in a manner which causes no damage to the item in question)
 The turn and carry (if the dog does not turn around you will not regain possession of the item and carrying things will alter the dog’s centre of gravity and how it moves)
 The present to hand (spitting the item out on the floor is not acceptable because it could lead to damage or loss)

The ultimate aim of the trainer is to have the Martini Dog, ie one that will retrieve anything, any time, anywhere.

So, if the vital component of the exercise is “to regain possession of” it makes sense that the focus of training should be at the end of exercise rather than the beginning. It does not matter how well the dog marks; how stylish the run out is or how fast, if it runs away with the article or guards it, the whole exercise is a waste of time. But before we explore this further I would like to address some regular concerns.

Is there anything that I should never do if I want a dog to retrieve?

Yes, NEVER scold your dog for picking things up and carrying them. You can then put dogs off the retrieve for LIFE; do NOT reward this behaviour if it is instigated by the dog but just swap it for something of higher value (not too high otherwise the dog will pick up everything in sight), with an offhand “thank you”. Do not use food! Do not chase the dog, do not compete with it for the item. The best way of avoiding this issue is of course to manage the environment effectively!

Why don’t I just throw something for my dog to retrieve?
Because you are trusting to luck or genetics, you are not in a position to control the dog’s behaviour ie to ensure it picks the article up, to stop it running off with the article, dropping it, guarding it etc etc in dogs with a strong prey drive. Also, if your dog does not have a strong prey drive (eg it is not particularly interested in chasing) the dog will not attempt to go after it.

My dog is already trained to retrieve (insert name of relevant articles)

Great then you do not need to read this article!

My gundog won’t retrieve dummies any more because it picks up game!

The dog is under or poorly trained. (Refer back to Martini Dog).

My dog is not interested in retrieving.

Any dog can be taught to retrieve reasonably well, provided that we a) make it simple for the dog to understand and b) provide sufficient reward. Not all dogs may be flashy but ALL dogs can be trained to perform consistent, reliable retrieves.

I want a particular style of “present”

Dogs can be trained to retrieve items in any manner you wish should you compete in more than one discipline.


How do I start training these presents?

The first thing to do is to train this behaviour WITHOUT a retrieve!

But I want to train the retrieve!

The most important part of the retrieve exercise is the end, without a perfect end, the rest is immaterial! If you start at the end of an exercise you condition the dog to go from the unknown to the known which means the behaviour is more likely and it will get stronger.

How soon can I start training the retrieve?

I start training the retrieve as soon as my pups come home at 7 weeks.

Can I train an older dog?

You can start at any age.

My dog has lots of bad habits which are too ingrained to change now!

Untrue, you can easily retrain the retrieve but you may need to rethink your commands.

Is there any time when I should NOT train the retrieve?

Yes, when your dog is teething, as soon as your dog starts teething you should stop any sort of retrieve training until ALL its permanent teeth are through.

What about the Force Fetch?

I have seen it done, and it works, however it does have a couple of drawbacks. First of all you need the skill to be able to undertake the training, secondly you need a dog that will take that pressure; if either are not present then you can ruin the both the relationship you have with your dog, and deter the dog from ever retrieving anything.

OK so how do I start?

The good news is that the foundation of retrieve training can be done in your living room and whilst sitting down! Great for those long, dark winter nights!

What do I need?

A chair and some food.

Why are you using food?

Because although some dogs will work for praise and a pat, most will require more motivation, food is a great motivator. It also means that you can do many repetitions easily which I will explain shortly.

What sort of food?

Well if you want me to get out of my chair and take the garbage out in the middle of the night in the pouring rain, I ain’t going to be very motivated by the promise of a plate of cabbage! It is the DOG that decides what is the most rewarding, so audition food. Some dogs will work solely for their ration (why give free food in a bowl several times a day when it is much more fun and natural for your dog to work for it); otherwise a few examples are cooked liver, heart, cheese, etc. The food should be tiny, especially if you are using it for a puppy, no bigger than the nail on your little finger at most.

Why am I using a chair, why can I not stand up?

Because if you stand up with a puppy, it has to sit further back from you to see your face, if you use a chair the dog can get very close to you. Also with older dogs, using your legs helps funnel the dog into the right position so you do not have to “correct” it. Also it stops the very bad habit of moving position to accommodate a rubbish return by the dog!

Okay, I have my chair and my food, now what?

You are going to train the “present” position eg the dog sitting in front of you, straight (this is the end position of the recall and the retrieve). Sit down, with your legs straight out in front of you (yes I am afraid you need to start on an upright dining chair for example) and your feet on the floor JUST wide enough for the dog to get his body in. (This is to condition the correct position). Using some food as a lure between your thumb and forefinger like a crane, guide the dog between your legs and when it is in the correct positon sitting down (you will need to use the food again to encourage this positon) either use a word such as “Wow” or a clicker and then throw the food away to your right.

Why Wow?

Some people use clickers as it is a non emotional, clinical signal to the dog which means a) I am right b) the exercise is finished and c) something good is coming. For people who prefer not to use them and to make it simpler you can use a word, and this word should be something that you do not use at any other time so the dog pays attention to it.

Why cannot I feed the dog from my hand?

Because if you did the dog would still be there! By tossing the food on the floor it gets the dog away from the position and gives you the opportunity to repeat the exercise!

When do I start using the words, COME and SIT?

Not yet, you get the behaviour that you want first, once it is very solid you can then use a cue.

What do I do next?

Continue for not longer than 3 minutes at most, being careful to toss the food to left and right

Why can I not just keep tossing the food in one direction?

Because a dog when it comes back to you will not necessarily be coming from one direction, so it needs to learn how to get into “the position” from your left, right and even behind you.

Why only 3 minutes?

Because if you are doing it well the dog will start to get full up on food; you leave the dog wanting to continue. However you can do 12 x 3 minute sessions a day if you want.

What do I do next?

Once the dog is doing this regularly and perfectly you can bring your legs in so that your feet are under your knees, then you can move to leaning against the wall and eventually stand upright. (If you have a puppy do not rush this). Throw the food further away, behind you, in front of you. Once the dog is reliable in the living room, move to the garden or hall (CAUTION, do NOT throw food into the grass as it will just make the dog start to hunt for food! Stay on tiles, decking, concrete etc or if you have none of the above invest in a piece of lino or plastic tablecloth etc.) You can also work on the dog’s attention by putting your hands together at first and then moving one hand away to the left/right; if the dog looks away bring back the hands together again and say WoW ONLY when he focuses on the hand that remains in the middle.

What if I do not want to train the formal present?

Then you can teach the hand touch.

What is this?

The dog stuffs its muzzle into the palm of your hand.

How do I do this?

First take a piece of food and place it between your fourth and fifth finger. Put your hand to your face and talk to it in a very interesting way (yes I know it sounds mad) and then offer your open hand to your dog, it will probably stick its nose into your palm, say WOW and then offer the food. Repeat 3 times. On the fourth time put NO food into your hand, offer the open palm again, the dog will stick its nose there expecting food, say WOW and offer the food from the OTHER hand.

Why are you giving food from the other hand?

Because you do not want the dog to start licking your hand and to teach the dog that food is contingent on the behaviour not vice versa (the difference between reward and bribery).

What do I do next?

Once you have this behaviour on either hand in a chair, stand up. (Tip, if you place the back of your hand next to the wall it will prevent you making the mistake of moving your hand away from the dog, your hand should not move; it is the DOG that moves his nose away from your hand in expectation of food.) Also start tossing the food away as you did in the chair.

Okay I can do this standing up and in the garden etc now what?

Duration; ideally you should be able to have a conversation with someone and the dog will not move until you say WOW, however this needs to be shaped.

How do I shape it?

Present your hand as normal, the dog bumps your hand and if you do not say WOW immediately it will probably step back and look at you expectantly. This is normal. Say and do nothing. Do NOT look at the dog, you should look at your hand (animals tend to look at things others are looking at, if you stare at the dog, it will inhibit it). It will probably then offer the behaviour again, when it does say WOW and toss the food. You have now reinforced the double bump. You should then get a dog which does a few double bumps, and very soon leave its nose there for a tad longer, WOW and toss food. Remember, 3 minutes maximum.

What if my dog does not offer the behaviour spontaneously again?

Wiggle your fingers, do not say anything and look at your hand intently, moving your face closer to your hand if necessary; dogs are curious.

I can do this in the house, garden, toss the food 10 feet away and the dog is doing both of the above behaviours 9/10 What next?

You can put the behaviour on cue so choose your word eg “touch” for your hand (this means you can transfer this behaviour to say door knobs etc to close doors and “come” for the present. You can also start asking the dog to touch whilst you are on the move. Now you are ready to start training the Retrieve.

What will I use for this?

For training purposes, do NOT use anything that you may be likely to come across in competition eg stay away from dumbbells, dummies etc.

Why?

Because if you make a mistake in training you have not risked associating bad things with what you might want it to retrieve for the rest of its life.

What sort of thing should I choose?

Something that is not chewy, not a ball, something that is large enough to stick say three inches each side of its mouth, I recommend a piece of yellow gas pipe or if not available garden hose pipe. A yellow or white item is easier for the dog to spot. Stay away from wood at first, metal can put some dogs off.

Is all of the above really necessary?

That depends upon your point of view. I leave you with a final thought, dogs are not good at multitasking, so asking them to sit and present before they have learned to do this WITHOUT retrieving is risking failure and confusion.

Thank you SB. I will give this a go with Parker tomorrow and let you know how things are going.

I used to have a Cairn terrier who would retrieve an egg, a cream cracker and a cooked sausage. I trained him to do this after watching the "Superdogs" tv programme where they had dogs do this. I certainly would not try this with Parker as I know what the end result would be!

Angus never had treats in training yet would do anything you asked him. He did obedience and agility and was so motivated to please. I think he thought he was a Collie as not typical for a terrier to be so "altruistic".

You are welcome, I will leave it a while before I post Part 2!

Thats well written Smokey!
It is your work?

Yes, all my very own! and Thank You.

No matter what age your dog is if you have followed the steps EXACTLY in Part 1 you should have a puppy/dog that:

 will come into the perfect “present” position either whilst you are standing up or in a chair from any orientation either by body language or on command.
 will stuff its muzzle into the palm of your hand on command and hold it there until it is released or given another command.

If this is so you are ready to continue. (Please note an experienced trainer can train a dog in all the components separately at the same time, however I would urge beginners to progress in the manner I describe).

What do I do next?

The next issue is to teach the dog to hold the article correctly with no mouthing or chewing.

Where do I start?

In the “present” position as the dog already knows this and is comfortable with this part of the exercise. (I would recommend that you do this in a chair).

How do go about it?

When the dog is in the present position, hold the article at each end in front of the dog and look at it, not the dog. If the dog touches it, licks it or, even puts it in its mouth, say “WOW”, and throw a bit of food away as before. (Have the pot of food beside you as the dog by now should know not to touch it). When the dog is coming back, repeat throwing food in each direction as before. Do not offer the article again until the dog is back in the present position. The dog should immediately drop the article the minute you say WOW if your previous training was correct.

What if my dog only bumps or licks the article and never tries to open his mouth?

Then you must shape the behaviour.

How do I do that?

Withold the “WOW” until the dog makes an effort eg licks instead of bumps, opens his mouth instead of licks etc. The dog will get frustrated because it is not getting rewarded and should try other things to get what it wants.

My dog started to bark/stand up/whine what should I do?

This is perfectlyl normal and nothing to worry about. The dog is just trying a repertoire of behaviours to see what works. Do nothing until he makes even the tiniest effort to progress. If it goes on for a minute or so, go back a step and reward the initial behaviour eg bump, lick etc to give the dog confidence.

My dog is holding the dumbbell in its mouth, what next?

Do not make the mistake of asking the dog to hold it for too long so it then starts to chew or mouth it, increase the duration in very small incremental steps.

What if my dog chews?

Stand up and walk away and then start again. Say nothing, do not scold etc.

My dog does not hold article firmly, what do I do?

Try to take article from the dogs mouth using ONE hand at ONE end. If the dog lets it go, say nothing and start exercise again. If dog closes jaw, say “WOW” and throw food. Repeat by using either hand at either end.

My dog won’t let go of the article

This often happens with very possessive dogs you just need to teach the “out/leave/drop” command. Do NOT try to force the dog to open its jaws; do NOT try to pull article out; do NOT smack it etc etc. You will teach the dog to compete with you for it and this will result in a dog not coming back, not giving up the article and even running off with it and guarding it.

[B]How do I get the dog to let go?[/B

]If you have a dog that will not drop it, say and do nothing until it does let it go. (All dogs will get tired eventually). Do not hold on to the article, the dog may start to struggle, but you may keep the dog on a lead so it cannot escape and do anything else. The MOMENT it drops the article say WOW and throw the food away from you AND the article, you may need to use 3 or 4 pieces further and further away. Reoffer the article once he is back in the present position and WoW again and throw food ONLY when the dog has dropped it.

It sometimes helps to wave the food under the dog’s nose without saying anything. You can add the command “out/leave/drop” once you have the behaviour.

My dog anticipates the “out/leave/drop” command, what can I do?

Only take articles from him when the dog is at your side.

How do I do this?

When the dog comes back into the present position (when you are standing up), move to the side of your dog and take the article from this position. This prevents a dog dropping articles on the floor in anticipation of what you may do next. Alternate sides, keep the dog guessing so it learns to out/leave/drop ONLY on command. Another thing to practice is to raise your hands as if to take the article, if the dog starts opening his mouth or chewing, drop hands.

My dog is taking the article from my hand and holding without chewing or mouthing and giving it up correctly, what next?

See if the dog will carry the article without chewing or mouthing.

How do I do this?

When the dog has article in his mouth stand up, and take a step, if the article remains where it is, WOW and throw food after dog spits out article. Then gradually increase movement until the dog will carry it round the room, coming towards you, walking next to you etc.

Now what?

Now that you know that your dog will hold without mouthing, carry it without mouthing you can then progress to the actual retrieve. Back in your chair you then start holding the article out to your side so the dog leaves the present position to pick article up and return to present position. Alternate sides. Throw food as before. Gradually lower it until the article is on the floor. Throw food as before. Then place article on floor in front of you, get back in chair and reward as before. Gradually place the article further and further away. Eventually you can throw it, in all different directions.

What if I do not want a present?

Well you have taught the hand touch, you follow all the steps above but ask the dog to stuff its muzzle into your hand with the article in its mouth by offering your outstretched hand as in the hand touch exercise. I would recommend that you follow the initial present training first however as it is easier to conduct for a beginner.

If you follow the above training regime you will have a dog that will do a perfect retrieve on one command “hold” because you have trained a behaviour chain.

My dog retrieves the article before I have asked him to

If you have a helper this is simple to prevent, the helper merely picks up the article before the dog gets to it. Do NOT say anything to the dog, he will learn quicker by cause and effect and in sensitive dogs with a low prey drive you could kill the desire to retrieve. If you do not have a helper then keep the dog on a light line with no handle and no tension, so that the dog is stopped before he gets to the article. Again say nothing.

My dog is article mad and I can’t stop him picking up things

Start with his favourite article, put it on floor, keep light line on, ask the dog for attention, WoW and let him get article. Progress by asking for other exercises such as heelwork, recall around it on the floor, WOW and let him take the reward. The dog should learn that the reward is contingent on the behaviour not the reverse. This method will INCREASE the desire to retrieve, IMPROVE self control, and HEIGHTEN performance of other exercises.

Once you have a dog that will retrieve an object reliably, whether it is in front of you, behind you, left, or right, progress to unusual retrieves.

What do you mean by unusual?

First of all location, put object on chair, on end (eg dumbell, or dummy), behind something, in front of something (immoveable), even under something.

Why?

Because in competition you never know what might happen, dumbells for example do land end up. So if you have trained your dog to pick it up that way, ie it will not flummox it in competition.

Should I stick to one article?

In Schutzhund you only have to retrieve a dumbell which varies only in weight through the stages 1 - 3; in GWT only dummies are used but some may be covered in fur and cold game is used sometimes in the open test. Field Trials all sorts of game may be shot (sometimes by accident) and in Obedience and Working Trials the dog may be given practically ANTYHING to retrieve.

What sort of suggestions do you have?

I like to choose things that dogs have to work out how to hold, eg a hammer, or a bottle half filled with water challenges a dog in how to hold an article weighted at one end or moving weight. Thinks like plastic tumblers test if a hole has been made by a tooth; raw eggs, metal eg chains; mesh, net, things that make a noise when carried; the possibilities are endless.

Textures are an important part of retrieval training some dogs will not like weird and wonderful things like straw, springs, bottle brush, scourer, etc.

Part of retrieve training should be increasing the level of skill and knowledge of your dog so he can work out how not to drop.

The same applies to game, many novice dogs will not pick up pigeon because of al the little feathers; woodcock may smell too much, hare and rabbit can be challenging to the dogs with smaller mouths, some cockers will drag part of it.

The more diversity you put into retrieve training the more confidence you build in the dog so you will get a dog that will retrieve articles even if they re cumbersome or restrict vision.

For example, when I use cones for sendaway training my dogs will retrieve them even though they are large, heavy and they cannot see where they are going because the KNOW the exercise and they trust me.

The possibilities for retrieves are endless and can be applied to assistance dogs eg opening and shutting doors, taking clothes off, emptying the washing machine, paying for items with a card, these are all varieties of "retrieve"

Thank you very much for those articles Smokeybear.

George, my 18 month old GSD has never wanted to hold his dumbell. Last night at the club, he finally held it for 10 seconds, knowing he'd get a piece of chorizzo sausage.

I'm pleased I have only used a knotted rope for him to retrieve at the club, which he does fine.

I had been using a piece of dowling, covered with string to try and teach the hold. Not successfully. Why do you say that wood isn't a good idea?

Tomorrow, I'll be sitting on my kitchen stool and starting with your methods. D'you recon hubby will notice the hose pipe being a little shorter?

Thanks again.

Nicky

Nice article SB

I might try something like that with Mia

I have given up with Ben - he will NOT take something from my hand, he dosent even take treats from my hand unless they are tiny clicker treats - anything bigger I have to put on the floor
and yup I have tried shaping it but he dosent offer anything with his mouth at all! He is an odd boy with his own rules

He does fetch a ball and he drops it between my feet - but any movement from me or any sign of treats or commands and he drops the ball where he is to do the thing he thinks I am asking for

I dont mind really - I dont want a formal retreve I really just wanted to teach him to put his toys away