High drive dog and inexperienced owners

I know in general the belif is someone else training a dog then giving it back to the owners is a bad thing as the owners have to learn to train the dog

But someone I know has a VERY ball focused dog - she really pretty much has no handler focus whatsoever, people are there to chuck balls - end of - and stairing at them for long enough is how you get the ball
She is pretty much deff to anything and has pretty much no basics, no impuls control, no interest in anything that isnt a ball
and the owners dont really have the best timing
So as it stands I dont see how the dog will possibly learn even the basics

would it be a crazy idea for someone with a better idea of timing to train the dog some basics - focus and learning to work for a reward at least - to give her owners a bit of a chance?
Or any other ideas how to deal with this type of this?

Ooh that's a difficult one.

If the dog is going to miss out then of course there's a window to 'step in' with the training but much depends on your relationship with the owner of the dog.

It's all very well being 'better' but the emphasis needs to be on the relationship / training between dog and owner rather than just the dog.

If you feel inclined to help - can you not encourage / involve the owner ?

I don't necessarily see someone else training the dog as a bad thing - so long as the person training the dog then trains the owner.

Unfortunately, in many cases a dog can be trained by one person to a high standard, but when handed back to the owner the dog reverts back to its usual behaviour, as the owner hasn't the skills or knowledge to control the dog and continue his/her training.

Training the owner as well as the dog is the key imo.

I think it depends on wether the owner is willing to learn.
It may be a short cut - but as has been said, unless the training is reinforced in the right way, the dog will regress.

How old is this dog?

I have seen this many times. The owner has used the ball as a control device and created an adrenaline junkie however has failed to realise that they are merely a mobile toy dispenser and have no more meaning to the dog than a vending machine does for us.

As has been said, somebody else could manage this dog and build the relationship between the themselves and the dog which is lacking between owner and dog, but unless the owner follows those rules to the letter no improvement will result.

I am afraid that it is another case of be careful what you wish for.

Many people's reach exceeds their grasp and I have seen the unfortunate results.

To go back to my original question with this type of dog and maturation, frustration can result in the dog displaying behaviours which may lead to relinquishment.

Yes it is a dielemma, the owners are really trying and I think would really get a whole lot out of being able to train her herself - but its really hard to help them as she dosent really have any basics and they are struggling with timing - like chucking the ball way too late or keeping tugging when they are trying to get her to release - and constantly saying commands again and again when there is no chance she will do them

Yes I know what you mean, I deff wasnt thinking of training her to a high standard - just training a couple of basics so she learns the idea of actually working for the ball can be fun - I totally agree that its the people that need trained - but at the moment I feel the combination of both of them has hit a brick wall

Yes the owners are really wanting to learn, it just isnt clicking with them. I think they would be able to train a less driven dog but it is just this girl is so so focused on the ball

She is a 2 year old GSD cross collie.
Yup thats exactly it - good term - people are ball vending machines to her
I think yes possibly someone else training her up may not be the best thing - the owners really need to - and would benifit from that bond
hmm I wonder if there is a lower value thing that can be used as a reward to get some focus then the ball to be a surprise reward?

my dogs are all trained with balls as rewards....I would probably remove the balls all together. Start over with a trainer. However I only train workers...not pets.

[QUOTE=Ben Mcfuzzylugs;hmm I wonder if there is a lower value thing that can be used as a reward to get some focus then the ball to be a surprise reward?[/QUOTE]


I would remove the ball (and any other toy) from the equation all together.

We know that toys raise drive, food lowers it, so I would tell the owners to remove all toys for now.

Then build the bond using food, verbal and bodily contact.

If and when the dog responds reliably to this in all situations I may reintroduce a toy (not original ball) very carefully AFTER the dog has learned

impulse control
generalisation
out on command

and only at the END of the training period.

If she is ball mad, replace it with something of much lower value and it needs to be DIFFERENT at each training session so the dog does not fixate.

So could be a bit of carpet, hosepipe, ring etc etc the possibilities are endless.

Thanks SB, yes that does make sense
yup fixating is deff the word, I hope they go with the idea because I know she could be amazing if she just learnt to put that drive into working with people - and at the end of the day she is a mix of two breeds who do like working with people