Training in disciplines.

I have just posed a question on a shooting forum (pha!) basically asking if their gundogs were purely gundogs (can you see my mistake there?) or if they did other activities with their dogs.

Well I was basically told that other activities were basically counter productive and that your dog may be a jack of all trades but won't be good at any of them.. Also got that gundogs should just focus on the job at hand.

Now I felt a bit put out by this. Louie is trained up in obedience and I'm also trying to get him on to a few rough shoots as he is trained to retrieve game and do what gun dogs do. He knows the difference between obedience and gun dog work/training.

I also know of a few people in the gundog world that use them during the season for what they were bred to do, and compete or train them in agility when the seasons not on. I also know J&C both work and do agility. And I'm pretty sure Zak (moobli) is being trained in sheep and also S&R (correct me if I'm wrong)

So my question is.. can you really confuse a dog by training it in two disciplines?

I didn't understand why they said my training a dog up in both obedience and gundog stuff would confuse him - everything you need for one is essentially in the other. Agility poses more focus on you as a handler and also steadiness on things such as the dog walk, a frame and see saw, you can't have a dog barrelling over those objects and hitting it's points without teaching it to be steady first. Flyball was brought up too.. and I never mentioned it, but I suppose if you want a straight lined retrieve it could help..

Thoughts?

I do not mean to be rude but what is your definition of "trained up in obedience"?

Obedience is a requirement of ALL disciplines.

Do you actually COMPETE in Obedience?

Do you actually COMPETE in Field Trials or Gundog Working Tests or use your dog for beating/picking up at a shoot?

The facts are that many dogs compete successfully in two or more disciplines and participate in more.

For example, both Kathy Ingham and Suzanne Jaffa have made their two dogs into Obedience AND Working Trials Champions.

I am not sure if Mary Ray has made up any dual champions? But she certainly competes with the same dogs in Agility, HWTM and Obedience, or used to, at a very high level.

I know many Working Trial Dogs which also work on a shoot and compete in Field Trials.

So I see both points of view.

There is a big difference (IMHO) in participating in disciplines and actually competing.

However, as the old chinese proverb says

"The person who says it cannot be done, should interrupt the person doing it"

What most people mean when they say "it cannot be done" is that THEY cannot do it, a subtle but important difference.

I have managed it very well myself.

It certainly is possible to confuse a dog, if u use the same command/body pisture/hand signal etc to mean two different things. Like we were discussing at the training wknd, i think the reason Jet spits out balls in gundog training was because i never asked for a formal retrieve during agility......and that "leaked" into gundog work. Makes sense as he always perfectly retrieves birds.

Loads of gundog people do agility/flyball over the summer months with no problems. They are situational learners they know the difference. I just wish mine got as excited by an agility course as the do when they see Glen with a shotgun

Always pedantic. He is trained up in obedience but not quite competition style. He can still do all that a competing obedience dog can. And I did say I was trying to get my dogs on shoots. He can do what dogs that do go on shoots can do. But what my dogs can and can't do is not the point. I was just giving you context.

J&C - simple. Take a shot gun to Agility

Sorry i wrote that wrong - he always perfectly retrieved birds until my lack of effort in agility messed that up and it leaked from balls to birds is what i meant.......

You can now see a big difference as ive done no agility with him and Glen is obviously gearing up for shooting season, so that behaviour got "repaired" so to speak. And tut tut to me ruining retrieves!

Hahahaha good idea!!!!!

Yes I am pedantic that is what makes me a very successful dog handler.

To be yet MORE pedantic, it is amazing how many top level competition dogs that exist, .......... at home.

Sorry, but if your dogs are not tested in the competition arena, saying "your dog can do all that a competing obedience can do" is meaningless.

The same is true re shoots.

Until and unless you have competed in obedience or worked your dog on a shoot, you have no real idea about how well your dog will perform (or not).

As you rightly say, it is ALL about CONTEXT.

A very famous and successful breeder, exhibitor and judge once wrote an article entitled

"shoulda, woulda, coulda" about all the dogs whose owners believed "if only" etc their dogs would be excellent at (insert relevant discipline) but they only "did it for fun".

When you HAVE been there, done it, worn the T shirt, read the book and seen the film, then you will be entitled to say that your dogs can hold their own with those that have.

What YOUR dogs can and cannot do is EXACTLY the point surely otherwise you are merely theorising.

I am giving you the empirical view.

You need solid basics for anything IMO. My dogs do all the obedience stuff but not to competition standard---at least I don't think they do. I can't be bothered to get pefection.

That has a knock on effect and teaching agility to them is easy. Etta does basic cd wt stuff but again not to competition level---and not the jumps. Its just basics again really. Tracking is the bit I haven't tackled and would be more difficulot----but maybe not if I knew what I was doing?

HTM is again basics with additions, freestyle is more difficult IMO but again once you've got basics its easy to add bits gradually.

When I took Etta to a gundog trainer he was surprised at what she could do----again solid basics and good self control. Missing was quartering, she had it but I needed to control it.

Same with Tassle doing sheepdog work, the basic control is there and the instinct can be worked with.

For lots of people I think the retrieve becomes the big hurdle and I think unless it is rock solid and the dog really understands the concept it can be a problem.

Sorry ---I have a big thing about basics at the moment---can you tell?

rune

I like the basics too. Prob my boring sciency brain but i like breaking things down into pieces and perfecting them instead of rushing to the end goal

I used to take Pippa beating/shooting in the season and agility all year round. Wouldn't say we were experts at either, but we had fun!

I did do things in agility a little different to the other handlers though - refusing to play tug being one that springs to mind.

It takes a lot of hard work, and time to get a gundog up and running and doing a DECENT job so can certainly see the POV of the shooting forum.

Helen