Aversive trainers, a genuine question for you

this is a genuine question, i believe someone once said, "in order to defeat our enemy, we must first understand them" no idea who lol, may have even made it up!!
Anyway I want to know how aversives are used in every day training, why you choose that particular method and why an averise rather than an R+ method.
so for those of you who regularly use tools such as e-collar, check chains or prong collars, how would you teach:
Sit,
Down
Recall
Wait/stay
Leave
Heel

For each behaviour, i want to know, what method you use, be it an R+ or an aversive, which tool you use to implement it, i.e: toys/treats or prong and why you choose that above other methods. I also want to know how long you would use the aversive for? do you use them on your own dogs,? and is it only whilst teaching or on a regular basis, to "remind them"?
If you dont use aversive's to train any of the listed behaviours, then when and why do you use them. If you can teach everything without aversives in the first place (behaviours listed are the foundation to many behaviours) then why choose aversives simply because a behaviour has become exagerated.
Lastly; what will you use to train the dog if/when such things as e collars and prongs are banned?!
Like I said, genuine question, trying to understand why you guys do what you do, in the hope that if we can understand you, then perhaps you could begin to stand R+ trainers a little more.

Does your definition of aversive training include water bottles, rattle bottles, negative words like "NO!" and "Leave it!"? I'm not sure that dog training splits so neatly into them (the enemy) and us camps?

yes anything that would be classed as aversive but i only want to know how you teach BASIC commands using aversives, not if the dog already has "issues"

ETA i dont class "leave it" as an aversive, its a commmand, and can be a fun game. also "No" isnt necessarily an aversive it can be used (correctly) as a non reward mark

I'm afraid then I will need to be considered "an enemy". I don't think you can pick and choose about basic commands or not, as that would suggest that perhaps you don't have R+ answers for certain situations. I have a lurcher, who was very high prey drive as a youngster. I had the choice between working with her slowly to stop her chasing prey, and the possibility of her ending up on a main road chasing something, keeping her on leash all the time, or using a rattle bottle. I decided her safety was of paramount importance, and used a rattle bottle. It required only a few uses, and she stopped chasing. She would look at me to check if she was allowed to go off chasing, and I would call her to me, and reward her for not doing so. She showed no nervousness about approaching me for a pat, treat or whatever. She survived this what you would consider negative training unscathed, she could stay off lead, and her happy bubbly definite little character didn't change.

However, one of our other dogs is a classic Primark (or is it Primack, got a feeling Primark is a shop) Principle type dog, and needs to be trained in that manner.

The youngest one seems to be teaching himself as he follows what the rest of the pack are doing - sitting, lying, playing - so he basically trains himself! I just have to put a word to it...

Premack?

Does your dog have any sound sensitivity issues?

ok so did you initially teach a solid R+ "leadve" before exposing her to the prey or go straight in with the rattle? if not why not why? what made you decide on Aversive rather than reward for teaching that command?

I chucked a shoe at Saff once for chasing our cat---that worked! I also chucked a flexi lead at a springer who was dancing around refusing to be caught---that worked as well and he was able to be off lead with his owners as well after that. If I had known he did it I would have used a line----but I didn't know at the time. He did wear a line for a while afterwards.
I used a spray collar on Celt to achieve an instant recall around sheep---we are surrounded at various times of the year.
I have been pretty physical on occassion to stop fights, very rare but has happened.
I lost it with a GSD at agility once who had intimidated and gone for my George three times. I got hold of him by the scruff lifted him up and looked him in the eye and told him it was not acceptable behaviour----then I realised what I was doing and dropped him fast I was lucky to get away with it.

So I have used them but not for basic training and usually in frustration or anger!

rune

Firstly i think everyone at some point had acted through frustration/anger and also used Aversive methods in solid"panic" situation i.e if i saw a dog about to run in front of a car and had the opportunity to throw something at it in hope of distracting it, i would! (However im a rubbish shot lol so that wouldn't happen!)
anyway although they are Aversive i wouldn't call it training, more of a snap reaction to that situation in order to get a result, FAST

I would imagine most of us have used aversives at some point. While learning, while angry, while stressed...
Doesn`t mean there aren`t better ways.

lol.... i did something similar too... dunno who was more shocked...prob me